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OHSCrifle
OHSCrifle GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
2/14/23 12:53 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

The big banquet space has several zones laid out with a grid of pick points. And operable partitions to make it very flexible. 

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
2/14/23 1:00 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Well, all of our other mounting/installation options will also restrict the location of the stage relative to the infrastructure. 

My stage experience is quite outdated (we used 1000W PAR fixtures), but I would imagine lights would be either individually wired from the controller/dimming panel or at least connected in groups.  The receptacles in the catwalk and on the stage rigging were L15 (or L20) twist-locks.  But all were wired back to the lighting control panel. The more modern stage I worked at (but still 30 years ago), had a computerized control panel up and behind the audience with a central panel with dimmers located below the stage. 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/14/23 1:50 p.m.

In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :

Those were the days.  Burned fingers, exploding 1000w bulbs halfway through a show, and the smell of melting gels.  One of the spaces I work is still all incandescent with about 215 fixtures.  The power company be like...

Christmas Vacation National Lampoons GIF - Christmas Vacation National  Lampoons Nuclear - Discover & Share GIFs

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
2/14/23 6:29 p.m.
OHSCrifle said:

In reply to SV reX :

In a theater there is a catwalk up above and probably every kind of power imaginable.

If we furnish power above the access panels it'd be a crapshoot for what receptacles type, what voltages and what amperage.. it's a lot easier to hit a target that is known. I appreciate all the interaction - its way more than I hoped. 

Voltage and amperage's don't matter that much. Label them.. done. Plus (as Curtis noted), the load should be minimal because LED. 
 

Receptacle type is usually pretty standardized twist locks. 
 

The issue isn't the LOAD. It's the CIRCUITRY, and the cabling route (and appearance).  
 

They need lots of circuits tying back to the patch panel area in preset to have good flexibility in the controls. 

The reason the hotel should probably run the circuits is because they are taking away the towers. There won't be a neat, good looking, safe way to run cables unless they run UP into the finished ceiling. If they don't put the circuits in, then the truss hanging position isn't that useful (because they will have to drape the cabling off the truss to SOMETHING)

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
2/14/23 6:35 p.m.

Picture the circuitry like extension cords that aren't plugged into anything at either end. One hanging every 2 feet. You don't need load calculations because there is no load. 
 

The lighting guy is gonna plug his lighting instruments in one end, and plug the opposite end into his dimmers. The only thing he will need is the rated amperage of the cables, and a power source for his dimmers. 
 

If the cables are pre installed permanently, he won't have to rig some crap to drape his wires from. 

mad_machine
mad_machine GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/14/23 7:04 p.m.
SV reX said:

My suggestion...

Talk with a lighting designer about a "standard" color wash for the area. Include dimming console and everything. Install the instruments permanently on a truss that conceals itself in the ceiling. 
 

Leave empty space and extra capacity and circuits so a traveling group could add a few instruments as needed. 
 

Most of the time, the permanent system will suffice with some refocusing. 

You do not need a "standard" colour wash.  You need LED fixtures with colour changing capability.  We used Mac Auras in our one theatre, nice and compact and they a nice colour wash and moving head fixture. This cuts out the need for gel, focusing, and even changing lenses. A few instraments can do the work of a 120k rig,

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
2/14/23 9:26 p.m.

In reply to mad_machine :

True.  That's what I intended, but I intentionally stopped short of specific suggestions for the actual lighting design.  That's the job of the lighting designer (who would most likely recommend programmable instruments with color changing ability)

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/15/23 11:53 a.m.

Honestly, given the fact that the new industry standard is color LEDs, the only thing you need to put up there is X number of 15A circuits on 12ga romex and a single DMX.  I don't care how many fixtures you put up there, you won't exceed 512 DMX addresses, so one DMX is good.  If you want to future-proof it (always a good idea), look into ArtNet.  It's DMX over Cat6 and the receiver converts the DMX to a fiberoptic splitter.  Normally, DMX has to be daisy-chained because it's a bounce/repeater bitstream.  You can't just install a physical splitter.  ArtNet works as a router, sort of like a fiberoptic digital snake, so to speak.  It not only allows you to send 4 universes of DMX (512 address times 4, or 2048 addresses) it also makes it impossible for voltage spikes to backfeed and kill DMX chips.  I've done it before.  I had a voltage spike take out 40 fixtures AND the console.  That was a $3500 mistake and three weeks of getting parts and repairing.  Since ArtNet adds a fiberoptic routing component, and you can't send a voltage spike through light, it's a big surge protector.

If someone wants to do a load-in of incandescent lights (not going to happen), then they can figure out how to bring their own dimmer pack and run a SOCO cable.  Shame on them for using incandescent lights, and shame on the venue for letting them in the building.

Here is what I think the venue should provide:

1) a dedicated 200A (min), three-phase panel.  There are industry standards for theatrical installations, but it's a glorified version of what you might have in your house, but three phase Delta.  This is referred to as a Company panel and it's a dedicated load box that activates the circuits that they might use for sound, lights, etc.  Larger venues like a large proscenium theater might have as many as 5 company panels.  The large proscenium where I sometimes work has 4 - three backstage, and one front-of-house for sound.  Lighting has it's own panel as part of the infrastructure of the building that doesn't need to be controlled by the "company" (the visiting production).  You space needs one, to be honest, unless you want a separate panel for sound, or if you anticipate having your sound/light folks setting up at different areas.  Each panel should have cam-lock connectors.  Cam-locks are big monster plugs for each leg, neutral, and ground off the main breaker in the panel.  This is for things like distros, dimmer packs, etc.  It's not a requirement as many things have become more efficient (LED fixtures, digital audio, efficient Class D amps, etc) but a consult from a theatrical production install firm would be helpful there.

2) that Company panel should power several dedicated circuits, like some 120v, 208v, and possibly 240v outlets in the ceiling, some 120v in the walls/floor for control booths.  You'll likely want all three voltages in the ceiling.  LED lights are already capable of detecting and using whatever voltage you throw at it, but the pigtails might show up with edison plugs, twist locks, or some variation of 240v plugs.  That way if a company shows up with twist locks, they won't have to change 50 pigtails and 50 fuses in the fixtures just because you only have 120v edison plugs.  If the production side of things in the space is going to be very limited to things like weddings, banquets, and meetings, just 120v edisons are fine in the ceiling.  That will just need to be part of the discussion with the production and it becomes their problem.  It's not outside the norm to tell the lighting company that you only have 120v edisons and they'll just put different plugs on the pigtails before they come over.  If you productions are more frequent and you have proms with a band, high school plays, or become known for big-deal wedding receptions, having three voltages up there is a real game changer.

3) DMX.  Many options here.  You can do conductors, ArtNet, or wireless.  Wireless isn't a terrible option, but it's not future-proof for two reasons.  1) it's not a question of IF it will get interrupted by interference one day, its WHEN.  2) as fixtures and consoles get more complex, there is a throughput/bandwidth threshold that wireless may not handle.  If it tries to take too many bits of info at once, it bottlenecks and gets wonky.  ArtNet is tits, if you'll pardon the misogynist reference.  Conductors are bulletproof, but more setup work.  I would strongly consider two runs of 5-pin DMX (which can easily convert to 3-pin) if you do hard wires.

4) Optional, but makes everyone's lives so much easier.... about 16 nodes of shielded Cat6 (Ethercon) run through a patch panel to everywhere in the room.  Yes, I said patch panel.  Not a switch or router.  Upgrade to a switch later.  The reason is, many of the gadgets your companies will bring are designed to use Cat6 converters, but they're proprietary gadgets that get lost in network TCP/IP.  They're not an addressable gadget, they just convert the proprietary signal (like HDMI, digital audio snake, ArtNet) into something that can be stable buzzing through Cat6.  As time progresses, these gadgets will become more commonly router-able.  Things like Dante (industry standard for digital audio snake) is a network-based protocol, but many digital audio snakes are proprietary to their own brand, like my Behringer system at the theater.  The benefit here is that your company shows up, sets a digital snake on stage and plugs it into Node F.  They walk back to the sound desk and plug the console into Node 3.  Then they walk to the patch panel and stick a jumper into F and 3, and sound is done.  Have a PowerPoint to project?  Plug an HDMI/Cat6 converter in your laptop and plug into Node 7.  Go to the patch panel and plug a jumper into 7 and whatever node the projector is on.  Done.  It can honestly take a 4-hour load in with ladders and scissor lifts and make it a 1-hour load in with a coffee and a bagel.  It's also completely sanitary.  You won't have cords running everywhere, XLR all over the place, or need carpets and ramp curbs making trip hazards and ugly things.  Always do shielded Cat6 because audio needs it.  You can run something that doesn't need a shield through a shielded cable, but not the other way around.  Always do Ethercon because you can plug a standard RJ45 into Ethercon, but not the other way around.

5) A dedicated, password-protected wifi network with a hidden SSID that you provide login info to the production.  They can use it for remote client on (at the very least) the sound desk, and possibly the lighting console.  I have a cheap-ass Netgear router in my booth connected to the sound desk and lighting console.  From there, my LD can program an entire show from a laptop in an audience seat, and my sound engineer can adjust levels with an iPad from the audience level before retreating to the booth for running the event.

Edit to clarify:  All of that is a future-proof dream install.  You can get by with just adding your pick points and an extension cord and let them deal with it.  It will just shift the cost from venue infrastructure to future rental/operation cost.  The rental/production companies will charge by the hour for setup/teardown, so it depends on if the venue wants to spend money now or later.  I also suggest it now because adding this infrastructure will never be cheaper than when you have bare walls and a crew already on site.  Adding it later will cost more.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
2/15/23 12:27 p.m.

There you have it. Curtis is your lighting designer. cheeky

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
2/15/23 12:28 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Is that misogynistic?  Guys have tits too! cheeky

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/15/23 2:31 p.m.
SV reX said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Is that misogynistic?  Guys have tits too! cheeky

That is a very insightful point.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
2/15/23 6:23 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

My father in law had breast cancer. Changes your perspective. 

mad_machine
mad_machine GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/15/23 6:42 p.m.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Honestly, given the fact that the new industry standard is color LEDs, the only thing you need to put up there is X number of 15A circuits on 12ga romex and a single DMX.  I don't care how many fixtures you put up there, you won't exceed 512 DMX addresses, so one DMX is good. 

I would respectfully disagree with that.  A single Mac Aura will use up t0 25 of that those channels If you have 20 of them hanging there, you have used up 500 out of that 512.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/15/23 10:49 p.m.
mad_machine said:
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Honestly, given the fact that the new industry standard is color LEDs, the only thing you need to put up there is X number of 15A circuits on 12ga romex and a single DMX.  I don't care how many fixtures you put up there, you won't exceed 512 DMX addresses, so one DMX is good. 

I would respectfully disagree with that.  A single Mac Aura will use up t0 25 of that those channels If you have 20 of them hanging there, you have used up 500 out of that 512.

I don't disagree with that math, but if you need 20 R2D2s in a hotel banquet hall, good on ya.  I run a whole theater with 20 LED pars, 10 LED Lekos, 6 Fuze movers, four 4-channel edison dimmers, a handful of Colorados, a hazer, a fogger, and I don't use half of a universe.  I suppose it's possible that you might run out of addresses, but most modern consoles will do 4 universes out of the box.

mad_machine
mad_machine GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/16/23 10:53 p.m.

I guess that is the difference between an actual theatre that does productions and a theatre in a casino where we also do comedy, rap, rock, and country shows along with full orchestras and meetings large corps.

Our (ancient) rig in our main ballroom has 20 Mac 2k, 6 Mac Vipers, an unknown number of regular lekos and pars, and 250 RUSH MH1s.  Our MA1 with a replay unit and three additional processors is barely keeping up and we often have to unpatch stuff for the big shows.

Later this year we are supposed to go to an all LED rig, all new Rush and Mac fixtures, and a Grand MA3

I am not sure on the specs of our smaller theatre, but it is an actual theatre with several dozen Mac Auras, 8 Vipers, and a few dozen LED lekos.  It's MA1 has only a couple channels free at any one moment

 

BTW, Colorados are a beast, I recently took one apart to fix an issue, they are way overbuilt for what they are.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/17/23 1:35 p.m.

In reply to mad_machine :

Colorados are a tour monster, but I hate their color rendering.  So frustrating to get the colors I want.  It's a trade off.  It's like driving a 94 Camry.  It will never break and it will last for 30 years, but you're also stuck driving a 94 Camry

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