In reply to NOHOME :
In reply to NOHOME :
Here's a Plan View and 3D view of your original layout. I don't think it works as well as swapping the range and sink.
In reply to VolvoHeretic :
I honestly don't see the difference swapping the sink and the stove. They both need about the same space. The work triangle doesn't change at all.
Try putting the door where the stove is and the stove on the RH wall. It will totally change the entire layout.
Here you go. It's just kind of slapped together and cabinet sizes might not be optimized.
In reply to VolvoHeretic :
That layout changes a lot. The biggest difference is that it creates an actual cooking station with decent counters both sides. Might be good when reverse searing steaks.
It also separates the cooking station from the cleaning and prep areas. Might make it more workable for a 2 person kitchen.
In reply to NOHOME :
You said you don't need a dishwasher. No problem. Do you need a double sink for dish washing? It affects sink base dimensions.
Your first drawing shows a decorative range hood. That's an important modern design element. But it also means less storage, and no microwave over the range. Will you have a microwave? It will affect the entire kitchen layout.
Think about trash can location. It's a central design feature that effects traffic flow. Traditionally they are often under the sink, but this means they can't be accessed well when someone is standing at the sink. With no dishwasher, it means one person can't scrape plates while another washes. I would consider putting the trash can in a cabinet right next to the door into the kitchen.
In reply to SV reX :
Single sink.
Microwave in the corner cabinet opposite side of sliding door from fridge,
The plan is to vent the hood outside cause my cooking can get exuberant.
The concern I have is that any plan that is not the current layout is going to have less continuous counter space to work with.
Keep the thoughts coming cause they do help.
If we're trying to maximize counter space, then any plan with the fridge shoved back into a corner seems sub-optimal to me.
You just end up with ~3 of feet of bare wall between the fridge and the sliding door that can't be used for much of anything.
If the fridge can be moved to a place closer to the center of a wall, then you can wrap cabinets/countertop around that corner and close to the sliding door.
If we're moving the pocket door closer to the middle of that wall, then the fridge could be right next to that doorway on either side which would free up that back corner and sliding door wall for activities.
In reply to STM317 :
That's true, but it also makes counter space that is sub-optimal (because it doesn't connect to either the range or the sink), and crowds the space near the sink.
Additionally, fridges are huge. There is no such thing as a counter depth fridge. Even the ones that are called that do not limit their depth to 24".
In a small kitchen, a fridge in the middle of a run of cabinets means less floor space and a giant visual element that makes the e room seem smaller. It's usually best to try to stick them in corners.
A standard fridge is about 32" deep, but can run up to 36" deep. A counter depth fridge is typically about 28" (with space for the plug)
In reply to NOHOME :
Unless it's a teeny tiny little microwave, I've never seen a corner cabinet that could house a normal microwave.
A typical corner cabinet is 24" x 24" at the rear wall, but the door face is a 45* angle and is only about 15" wide. There is plenty of depth in the middle, but the depth for a microwave at the 2 sides is a max of about 14" deep.
In reply to NOHOME :
If that corner cabinet in your original drawing is a standard square cabinet for a microwave, you are gonna have a really difficult time getting the face frame to meet the wall cabinets next to it (because it doesn't have beveled corners)
I have personally vented two microwave/hood vents, my son's and my wife's. Well my friend the sheet metal worked did insisted in hooking my wife's to the square to 6" round transition piece and after refusing to use the rectangular extension I bought, placed the transition too close to the microwaves flapper which hit the sloping sides. So, he cut the corners of the flapper off and it no longer seals tight. But I digress. I won't claim that they are the best or most powerful though-maybe they just need a scoop like a normal vent. My son's was in about the exact same location as the last kitchen design I am calling #3 and passed through the tops of the effected cupboards.
In reply to SV reX :
If the fridge stays in a corner, then I'd absolutely not do a counter depth. There's no detriment to a full depth fridge in that case, so might as well go with the one that gives you more storage (and probably more purchase options too).
What I'm thinking, (assuming the pocket door doesn't get moved) is to move the fridge to the wall with the stove, near the pocket door. Essentially where "B30" is in this drawing.
Going off of VolvoHeretic's dimensions, it looks like that wall is just over 164.5". Subtract the 30" door opening and the 2.5" framing bump in the bottom right corner and the usable wall is 132". If we need a corner cabinet/lazy Susan as pictured that removes 36". So we'd have 96" of wall space for a 30" range, a 33-36" fridge, and some combo of base cabinets that totals 30-33" wide (this would depend on fridge width). I might do a 12" wide cabinet next to the lazy Susan-> the range,-> an 18" wide cabinet, and then the fridge. In this case, a counter depth fridge might make ingress/egress of the kitchen more natural than a full depth fridge, but maybe not terrible either way. Narrower fridge could achieve the same thing.
With that layout, you'd have:
18" of counter between the fridge and range
48" of counter between the range and the bottom left corner of the drawing
36" of counter from the corner to the sink*
52" of counter to the right of the sink into the top left corner
Up to 60" of counter from the top left corner to the sliding door
*the sink position could be moved into a more centered position on that wall to avoid conflict with the depth of the stove and offer better symmetry for aesthetics too
That gives decent work surfaces everywhere you'd want them, including 4 places with 36" or more. No door movement, and you're not mounting cabinets into pocket door framing. A full sized sink. A full 36" wide fridge opening and makes use of as much wall/floor space as possible given the current layout.
In reply to STM317 :
Gotcha.
One advantage to that is the fridge would then be closest to the traffic path (from the pocket door to the patio door). This would keep random stray people who were looking for a soda from getting in the way of the work triangle. The traffic path would be completely outside the work triangle (a good thing)
Aesthetically, it would put the big box directly next to the DR door. It would crowd the view of the kitchen. If that matters. Momma may not like it...
In reply to SV reX :
True. And adding cabinets/counters to three adjacent walls may make it feel more cramped as well. I tend to prioritize maximum storage and working area in a small space like that, but if it were mine, it would probably come down to me standing in that space with tape on the floor or boxes simulating cabinets in order to get a sense of things in meat space.
In reply to STM317 :
13 x 10 is a tricky size. It's too big to be small, and too small to be big.
Not enough space for an island, but a long walk from one side to the other.
The third wall could be blank, or perhaps a wall of pantry cabinets.
I'd be tempted to put a small cafe table seating for 2 in front of the patio door.
Ok, here's an assortment of fridge placements with one work triangle - non that I like. I concur 100% with NoHomes about deep refrigerators and how not only can't you see what is buried in the back, you also can't reach anything without emptying out the shelf. The only problem is that when I had to emergency replace my old side by side fridge only a counter depth french door would fit depth wise in my tight space. The deep fridge with no ice maker or bells and whistles was something like $1200 and the same in a counter depth (LG) was $1800 from Best Buy.
One solution for the long walk across the kitchen is those wheeled 30x18" wheeled island carts. I have one and after replacing the crappy caster wheels with nice ones, I love it. If I ever remodel my 70 year old built in place kitchen, I will get rid of the worthless peninsula and cut off the toe kick base from a 36x24 base cabinet and put it on wheels and build a rolling island.
In reply to VolvoHeretic :
The fridge is going into the corner by the sliding glass door if for no other reason than it it does not, the damn kitchen is going to look exactly like the old one when it is done after spending a lot of time and $$$.
Been 32 years so be nice to be able to see into the kitchen (current view from the pocket door is the side of the fridge ) and to see a different layout when inside.
From a work/ergonomics point of view, I actually don't think that the layout can be as good as it is now or improved, but I am tired or it. Well, the wife is, I would rather a new Miata, but its her turn.
Currently playing around with moving stuff an inch or two either way to see how it feels. Also populting it with the kitchen et al. Turns out this takes a lot of time, thought and effort to do properly. Who knew?
Pete
In reply to NOHOME :
Sorry but this is a design by committee group. Everybody gets a say. 
Please note the 9" pan cabinet next to the range. Its door is full height without a drawer and is for hiding all of your cookie sheets and pizza pans.
In reply to VolvoHeretic :
I do that too. I try to convince customers that a 9" cabinet has value.
It doesn't. It's a waste of space. It's a by-product of standardized design that doesn't quite fit into a space.
If there is any way to avoid tiny little cabinets like that do it. Fully custom designed kitchen almost never have tiny cabinets like that- they would include storage space for cookie sheets and such in more useful sized cabinets.
Having said that, I use them a lot. It's a good way to keep the budget down and use standardized box sizes. It's a heck of a lot better than an oversized filler strip.
Just try to never have more than 1 cabinet that is 12" or less.
Besides... they are good for hiding all of your cookie sheets and pizza pans! 😂😂
In reply to NOHOME :
I admire your chutzpah!
I've never before heard anyone say "What I've got is the best design but we're not gonna do it because we are bored!" 😂😂
I'm gonna get my fiancé's input. She's much better at putting the aesthetic before the function than I am!! 🤣🤣
In reply to SV reX :
I am married to a Redhead. Common sense and fear seldom enter the room.
I think the best design for this kitchen will involve careful attention to subtle details with a bit of creativity.
I submit the following for your consideration, with a lot of explanation following:
Starting in the top left corner going counterclockwise...
- Fridge:: I'm hearing you say there is only 1 acceptable location for the fridge, so there it is. But I cut your width from 36" to 32" because you are really tight on space on that wall.
- Sink base: You can't afford a 36" sink base, but 27 is too tight. A 30" SB will allow you to squeeze a standard double bowl sink, or a generous single bowl.
- Corner lazy susan: Lazy susans are important because they capture dead corners. But you can't afford a 36" corner cabinet. I'm suggesting a 24"x36" switchblade lazy susan. This will not rotate 360*, but it will give you access to the dead corner. It also allows a bit of symmetry on the sink wall with 2 18" base cabinets flanking the sink. One of the em is a drawer base.
Stove wall: I shortened the counter, but flanked the stove with similar sized upper cabinets. That will allow the decorative hood you like. Consider a trash can in the base cabinet next to the pocket door
Pocket door: I moved it, but only a foot and a half. It allows a storage wall on the RH side, while maintaining a decent length of counter by the stove. It also forces the traffic pattern to the patio door to stay on one side.
Island: Your kitchen isn't big enough for a great island, but I think a small one offers good value. I'm picturing a custom 32" x 48" island with 18" deep storage on one side, and stool storage on the other. It gives additional counter space when needed (just turn around and set things on it), but it also gives a place for someone to sit and chat with the chef. Additionally , it helps define the traffic pattern. The unique part is that it is on wheels. That will enable positioning it slightly differently when needed (ie: additional counter space for Christmas baking), or moving it completely out of the way.
Storage wall: You are short on storage space. 2 30" pantry cabinets help solve that (along with the island). The counter between the pantries is high so that the island can be parked underneath it when you want more floor space. Standard 24" is a little too deep- those are 18" and the counter is 15".
Wall cabinets: I'm a fan of 42" high wall cabinets. Even though they are hard to reach, they make good storage for seldom used items and visually anchor the cabinets.
I think this will give you great usability and flexibility, with an entirely new look.
Good luck!
I can see why the two first owners of this house moved rather than tackle the kitchen! ( Wife has lived in this hood since born, so knows the history)
We are all pretty much agreed that moving the pocket door entry to the kitchen would open up the design options. But that would require a rethink of the living space behind that wall. I actually suggested doing the kitchen as part of a complete upstairs house remodel, but it was pointed out that at least one of us was not going to survive the construction phase if we did this. So I chickened out. I might yet get a new Miata with the savings from that plan.
The island will probably not happen just because the kitchen is our highest traffic path and mud-area. A clear path is a good thing and less to mop around. Just the two of us and we seldom entertain.
I don't really worry about what a future buyer might think since the way things are going, If I ever move it will be either the next owner bought the house for the shop or they bought the lot and will tear down the current house to build something much bigger.
I am going to marinate on the thoughts from yourself and VolvoHeretic and will try to conversationally filter them into the possibilities. as I discuss the project with the redhead. I do thank all who have pitched in with ideas and drawings.
To anyone who has done this for a living, congratulations on having excellent client-management skills.
In reply to NOHOME :
Managing customers is much easier than managing spousal units.
Even if the island goes away, I still am an advocate of the storage wall (which still could mean moving the pocket door). More pantry cabinets. If it's a mud area, you could have coat hanging space near the patio door, and perhaps a bench to sit on and take off your shoes.
Best of luck!
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