Flynlow
Flynlow Reader
4/1/15 9:18 p.m.

So, recently got back from a trip to Florida, had a fantastic time. The trip also re-ignited my interest in boating. I got my first boat when I was 12...spent lots of time on them all through college, and then graduated and moved to the midwest and put the hobby on hold. I'm now back near the east coast, and considering another boat.

Now for the crazy part. If I were to buy something in the 20-30' range needing engine work, originally powered by a Mercruiser 350 or the like, how feasible would an LS1 swap be into something like this? The hope would be to shed weight, gain power, and boost fuel economy. Concerns are marinization (exhaust, ignition, etc.) abd eletrolysis protection for occasional salt water usage. Anything else to be worried about?

I'm wondering if I can buy a boat cheap (cause it's a boat, gotta pretend to save $$ at the beginning, only going up from here), and with some work have a relatively updated cruiser for weekend fun.

patgizz
patgizz GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
4/1/15 9:37 p.m.

www.chelseacoachworks.com/pages/show_frame.php?menu=../boats/boat_bar.html&content=http%3A//www.chelseacoachworks.com/boats/pages/ls1.html

unk577
unk577 HalfDork
4/2/15 6:00 a.m.

http://www.seven-marine.com

LS outboards. Just don't look at the prices.

Toyman01
Toyman01 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/2/15 6:48 a.m.

That sounds crazy expensive to me.

The Alpha 1 outdrive is only good to about 300 Hp and the 5.7 SBC was factory at 260 Hp. If you are looking for big HP, find a boat with a Bravo outdrive. They usually have big blocks in them and will handle much more power.

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt UberDork
4/2/15 6:58 a.m.

The biggest issue that comes to mind for sticking an LS engine in a boat is that you don't want to cool one directly with river water - use a water to water heat exchanger.

Gearheadotaku
Gearheadotaku GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
4/2/15 7:23 a.m.

Check out last months Roadkill. They put in LS in a jet boat. (after taking it out of the truck. Then put it back in the truck to tow the boat home. Because RoadKill.)

mad_machine
mad_machine GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/2/15 7:28 a.m.

you definitely do not want raw water cooling. A water to water intercooler will keep the LS happy for a much longer time.

Honestly though.. I hate to ask this question on this forum.. do you need that much power? I see way overpowered boats all the time, usually run by very happy shiny people who have no idea what they are doing with no regard to the "rules of the road". As a sailor, I loathe hearing these boats coming up behind me, I just know I am about to get soaked because they refuse to slow down or will intentionally try to upset my boat.

If I were to build a power boat.. it would either be a low powered "cocktail racer" or something diesel powered. A gas engine in a boat, you are gulping gallons by the hour

If you do go through with it.. I wish you luck, boating is a lot of fun, can be a lot of money, and takes a lot of time.. be sure you take the boating course as well!

pinchvalve
pinchvalve MegaDork
4/2/15 7:28 a.m.

I always heard that a V8 in a car at cruising speed runs at higher RPM but uses less torque, whereas in a boat at cruise speed, the RPM is lower but the torque load is higher. The "tune" of a marine motor is very different from what is needed on the street.

mad_machine
mad_machine GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/2/15 7:35 a.m.
pinchvalve wrote: I always heard that a V8 in a car at cruising speed runs at higher RPM but uses less torque, whereas in a boat at cruise speed, the RPM is lower but the torque load is higher. The "tune" of a marine motor is very different from what is needed on the street.

that is very true. Water is much thicker than air and creates more drag than asphalt.. and a boat has a lot of square feet moving through it.

alfadriver
alfadriver UltimaDork
4/2/15 7:58 a.m.
pinchvalve wrote: I always heard that a V8 in a car at cruising speed runs at higher RPM but uses less torque, whereas in a boat at cruise speed, the RPM is lower but the torque load is higher. The "tune" of a marine motor is very different from what is needed on the street.

It's more about the required needs as opposed to specific RPM's- anything can be geared to do any speed.

The real issue about marine usage is how much power for how much time, and how efficient the engine is to do that. Seems like most boat users use a very high percentage of the available power 1) because they can and 2) there are few limits. So if you want to cruise at 80% available power, most gas engines don't do that well, as they are better at crusing at 20-30% power with transients up to 80%. Whereas most diesels are quite happy at 80% power.

If you select well, you can find a gas motor that is very efficient at 80% power all day long. There just isn't that many out there who will run stoich or lean at best spark delivering 80% for hours at a time.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
4/2/15 8:36 a.m.

Plus, having grown up in and around boats on the Upper Chesapeake, I find powerboating to get very dull very quickly. If you're close enough to the water to get out on a weekday evening and take advantage of the smooth surface and light traffic, they can be fun. But most people don't have that advantage, which means you're stuck as a weekend captain crowded onto choppy water with all the idiots. That severely restricts your opportunities to go fast and have fun.

NOHOME
NOHOME UltraDork
4/2/15 9:50 a.m.

Boats have a worse prep-time+cost/ride ratio worse than women.

As to engine swaps; as I mentioned on another thread, they are harder to do and cost way more than you can anticipate. Dedication to fiscal incompetence is a must. Adding the word "Marine" to the parts list is just going to make it worse.

If you want a boat with an LSx, I would find one that is ready to roll. Boat buying is all about finding the motivated(scorned?) seller. You can leave fully insulting offers on the table and find a message from the seller's wife when you get home telling you to come get your boat.

Enyar
Enyar Dork
4/2/15 10:22 a.m.

You want an outboard!!!!

Kenny_McCormic
Kenny_McCormic PowerDork
4/2/15 11:53 a.m.

Maybe on a speedboat already setup for dry exhaust and fresh water cooling, if you can adapt most of the old marine specific parts (alternator, cooling system). Otherwise this is going to get stupid expensive very quickly, rather than just expensive.

Joe Gearin
Joe Gearin Associate Publisher
4/2/15 12:06 p.m.

If you get a boat that needs work---- FP Marine is your friend. It's also my brother's business, (shameless plug) so let him know you are a GRMer, and he'll set you up:

www.FPmarine.com

He's not your source for engines, but for everything else- take a look.

yes.....this is a canoe, and officially approved canoe!

tuna55
tuna55 UltimaDork
4/2/15 12:07 p.m.
NOHOME wrote: cost/ride ratio worse than women

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Flynlow
Flynlow Reader
4/2/15 12:56 p.m.

I appreciate all the responses so far .

I deliberately left my original post a bit vague in the hopes of getting as much breadth and depth of responses as possible, in the hopes of seeing some angles I hadn’t considered, and got some, so thanks! That being said, I should probably clarify a few things:

-I am quite familiar with the boating hobby, so the advice on expense of boats/speed/rules of the road is probably unnecessary. But I know you guys are just looking out for a fellow GRMer, and I appreciate it. As mentioned, I got my first boat at 12, and have been on board boats (both power and sail) since my second day on earth. Additionally, I’ve taken Marine Navigation courtesy of the Navy’s ROTC program in college (as an outside student), drove a race committee boat for offshore sailboat racing as a summer job (and logged about ¾ of the hours needed for my Captain’s license), as well as helped run a commercial marina for 3 years. So not my first rodeo, more of a return after a 10+ year hiatus. Any cool technology in the last 10 years that people want to suggest, I’m all ears! Though PODS or Zeiss drives are out of my budget.

-To clarify the intended boat and mission, I am looking at “Fast Cruisers”. Something that will cruise on plane at 20-25 knots, max out at 35-40, sleep 4-6 people in relative comfort, and have a small galley and head/shower. The intent would be to take a gf + occasional other couples for weekend trips, sleeping on board. I have a few specific models in mind, but most of the boats in this class came with twin 350/Alpha drives or 454/Bravo drives for propulsion. I am currently torn between picking up a fairly good condition boat for $15-20K and using it for a few years, with an eye towards this upgrade later, or spending $5-10K on a good hull/interior that needs engine/drive work already, and going ahead with the swap now. Which leads to….

-My goals for the swap aren’t to turn a small runabout into a cigarette boat, which may be what some folks were envisioning. The LS1s would fall between the stock small blocks and big blocks in power, but would obviously do better on power/weight. The big benefit that I would hope for would be a large boost in fuel economy due to EFI/torque/weight down, with similar cruise speed. Some smaller boats that have done similar conversions claim almost double the mpg (admittedly we are talking going from 1 to 2mpg), though I’m sure it is a combo of the EFI/tuning and the weight, with possible user optimism (wait…I mean prop optimization, yeah that’s it) thrown in.

-Regarding engine speed, cruise power would hopefully fall near the current engine speeds of 2700-3200rpm, which I would think is within a gas engine’s range for sustainable operation. I did consider diesels, and some have done 4 or 6 cylinder swaps, but that may be a bigger undertaking than I am willing to deal with. The benefit I saw to the LS1’s is they could be made to work with the existing mounts/drives/fuel system with adaptor parts, whereas the diesels are going to be pretty much clean slate.

-The engines would absolutely have closed cooling systems, that’s a good idea on any engine that sees salt water. I was more asking if anyone had heard of beefing up the anodes or adding additional galvanic corrosion points, or if there were any additional marinization concerns with LS1s beyond the normal backfire arrestors, water cooler exhausts, sealed starter/alternator, ignition/ECU, etc……the aluminum head/block worries me for no reason I can put my finger on.

mad_machine
mad_machine GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/2/15 5:42 p.m.

something to keep in mind them. Boats are generally designed to sit at a certain waterline with a certain amount of weight.. would swapping LSxs into it make the boat sit bow down from a lack of weight at the stern?

There was at least one Bugatti wooden runabout that had a front engine. Unless you had passengers sitting by the stern, it would try to nose in and become a submarine at speed

Toyman01
Toyman01 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/2/15 6:33 p.m.
mad_machine wrote: something to keep in mind them. Boats are generally designed to sit at a certain waterline with a certain amount of weight.. would swapping LSxs into it make the boat sit bow down from a lack of weight at the stern? There was at least one Bugatti wooden runabout that had a front engine. Unless you had passengers sitting by the stern, it would try to nose in and become a submarine at speed

That's not a bad thing to keep in mind. Especially on a high speed hull. My 20' IO would get a little squirrely (chine walk) if it was under 1/4 tank of gas and just me in the boat, at WOT. That was at 52mph in a 3100# boat. A full tank of fuel was an additional 330# and settled it down nicely.

neon4891
neon4891 UltimaDork
4/2/15 11:01 p.m.

Such temptation. Local boat dealer has a late 80's cabin cruiser for $5K. It has a mid berth and a wet head, I could live there. My wife on the other hand...

NOHOME
NOHOME UltraDork
4/3/15 8:29 a.m.
Toyman01 wrote:
mad_machine wrote: something to keep in mind them. Boats are generally designed to sit at a certain waterline with a certain amount of weight.. would swapping LSxs into it make the boat sit bow down from a lack of weight at the stern? There was at least one Bugatti wooden runabout that had a front engine. Unless you had passengers sitting by the stern, it would try to nose in and become a submarine at speed
That's not a bad thing to keep in mind. Especially on a high speed hull. My 20' IO would get a little squirrely (chine walk) if it was under 1/4 tank of gas and just me in the boat, at WOT. That was at 52mph in a 3100# boat. A full tank of fuel was an additional 330# and settled it down nicely.

Chine walking is one of the reasons I don't like fast boats. We used to sell a boat package that consisted of a 20' runabout hull with two Mercury "Mod VP" racing engines on a movable transom. These things had to be dialed in individually so as to not kill the customers. Part of my job was to go out and do lake testing with my lunatic boss driving to get them dialed in before delivery. That meant that I was the movable ballast while the boat was trying to kill us.

914Driver
914Driver MegaDork
4/3/15 8:38 a.m.

I've had a chubby for a Dutch Barge since seeing one at a boat show about 20 years ago. These were floating warehouses moving goods around Europe that people converted to apartments.

Mrs. 914 however ......

http://www.bowcrest.com/dutch-barge-specialists/index.php/page/4/?cat=5

Flynlow
Flynlow Reader
4/4/15 3:12 p.m.

In reply to 914Driver:

Very nice!

An additional goal to this whole project is doing a light trial (with weekend/week trips) of what it would be like to live aboard, and possibly upgrading to a trawler later.

Upsetting the trim of the boat is definitely a valid point. It may not be enough to matter on something this size, most of these boats are closer to 10000 lbs. I wonder if you could add additional fuel or water tanks to help balance it out. That was something I was considering anyway. A fuel capacity of 100-200 gallons isn't much, and many of the boats have 30 gallons or less for the fresh and black water tanks. Not ideal for something you're going to actually use.

Thanks for helping me brainstorm, it's been several pleasant days of contemplation with a cold beer after work .

mad_machine
mad_machine GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/5/15 4:53 p.m.

you can never have large enough fresh and black water tanks.. If you are considering living aboard.. maybe take the saved weight and use it to include a hot water tank I am sure the Mrs would enjoy hot showers

drainoil
drainoil Reader
4/7/15 1:01 p.m.

A relative is selling his 23 foot Century Arrow. Has cutty but no shower. Sbc/Mercruiser out drive good for 65 mph per gps. Very clean well maintained boat for a lot less than your willing to spend.

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