Read this nonsense...someone wants to tax sanctioned racing

Q, i think if the story were only that her daughter had broken her legs or was paralyzed or something, we all (including you) would still say the girls decision was not smart and that she needed a better decision making guideline...it is a shame her daughter died, and no one here is saying anything to the contrary. No one wants to hear about a child dying.

What we are saying is neon needs to A) get her e36m3 together, B) research the facts, and C) stop trying to make it everyone elses responsibility to correct the issues. we can tax people to the hilt, but it wont do any good unless we fundamentally correct the cause of the problem. In this case that may be driver training, but a tax on racing wont make drivers training better any more than taxing people for using gravity will make the rain fall any less.

I am kinda confused by this argument. It seems like the bill is proposing a 1% tax on big racing events in order to increase the training of young drivers on street survival. Am I misreading the article or did no one else bother reading it? I think the reasoning as to why they are doing this maybe misguided but I don't think a 1% tax (that is hardly any money) is a big deal since it is going towards training young drivers (hopefully).

96DXCivic wrote: ...I don't think a 1% tax (that is hardly any money) is a big deal since it is going towards training young drivers (hopefully).

It all adds up.

The local utility co. wants $x to help pay for people who can't pay their utilities...all sorts of people just want a small sliver to help pay for X. All well-meaning programs to be sure.

You could pick out all sorts of semi-related things for taxation to help alleviate millions of "problems".

How bout 1% of car magazine sales to help too?

It's only one percent

Anybody in business knows that 1% of sales is a big deal.

/rant off

-James

furcylndrfoury wrote: What we are saying is neon needs to A) get her e36m3 together, B) research the facts, and C) stop trying to make it everyone elses responsibility to correct the issues. we can tax people to the hilt, but it wont do any good unless we fundamentally correct the cause of the problem. In this case that may be driver training, but a tax on racing wont make drivers training better any more than taxing people for using gravity will make the rain fall any less.

I am disputing any of this. Those points are valid and need to be made. My concern is the manner in which they were being made. When someone is trying to make sense of and find meaning in the unexpected, and arguably avoidable, loss of a loved one, words like "Stupid", "Your grammar sucks" and "Weedin' out the gene pool," at best don't add much to the conversation. At worst are they are unkind and serve to harden attitudes or preconceived notions that racers are insensitive pricks.

The death of child lead to the formation of Mothers Against Drunk Drivers. Whether you agree with all their agenda or not, MADD highlighted an important issue and has probably saved a lot of pain because there effort led to behavior changes regarding alcohol and driving. We could be contributing to the formation of movement to demand tighter driver education and licensing requirements. Or we could be contributing to a movement to curtail illegal racing and get the kids in a venue where is safe legal and supervised. Or we could be contributing to a movement to shut down racing all together because "Racers are a bunch a insensitive pricks."

Put more simply, there is much to be gained by showing kindness, respect and listening, even if we not getting that in return. We may never sway Neon 18 from her convictions. But we can definitely sway others that are following the conversation.

Well said.

96DXCivic wrote: I don't think a 1% tax (that is hardly any money)

Feel free to give me 1% of your salary.

furcylndrfoury wrote: Im all for scheduled re-evaluations in order to maintain your driving PRIVILEGES...ahem let me repeat...PRIVILEGES.

While I agree with most on here, I'm going to take a separate stance from the rhetoric the government has shoved down our throats for the last few decades, and reflected in this post...

There is good case law and constitutional law precedent for the fact that driving a private automobile is a Right, whereas operating a motor vehicle for business gain is a priviledge. i can and will post said references if we decide to take a differnt thread in that direction, but it won't be today as the 5 o'clock wistle blew... ;)

Furthermore, it can be shown that a license granted after state given education and certification means that the state is effectively underwriting the competency of the license holder, and any failure on the part of said license holder after the state has decreed their skillset suitable by granting said license should hold the state accountable..

Blame someone else for your own faults, its written in the constitution somewhere. If its not, then it might be a good time to add it. Make it part of the naturalization requirements, raise your hand and pledge to always blame someone else for your own mistakes.

Yes, it is excessively crass of me to make comments like that given the loss of a loved one. But, after three years of teaching 18-20 year olds I realize a vast majority of the problems start at home where parents simply refuse to teach that thing called personal responsibility.

What are you teaching by taxing those that aren't at fault? You are simply teaching the art of shifting blame. Does the racing industry promote hooliganism? Want to do this the right way? Take away your child's PRIVILEGE to drive the moment they screw up. Set a standard when they are in the car with you. Teach them that driving on the road is not a right, but something they have earned. Increase the penalties for every 16-25 year old that gets a ticket. In fact, take away their license to drive if they screw up. Don't go tax the racers who haven't done a damn thing wrong.

My parents always said "If you screw up bad enough that you kill yourself, we'll just make another one." When I acted like a rotten brat my father had me expelled from school, when I came home he promptly threw my ass out for getting expelled from school. My first semester in college when I landed a 2.66 GPA my father told me that if I kept that up I'd be kicked out of school and on the streets. That is teaching your children responsibility, it isn't wiping their asses with baby wipe when they E36 M3 themselves. You do that to babies, not teenagers who have somewhat developed a sense of right and wrong.

I am sorry for your loss, I really am but you are blaming the wrong people.

96DXCivic wrote: I am kinda confused by this argument. It seems like the bill is proposing a 1% tax on big racing events in order to increase the training of young drivers on street survival. Am I misreading the article or did no one else bother reading it? I think the reasoning as to why they are doing this maybe misguided but I don't think a 1% tax (that is hardly any money) is a big deal since it is going towards training young drivers (hopefully).

My problem really isn't with the proposed tax, but in the way it will eventually be used. Without the threat of actually losing a licence to drive, the "schools" Ms. Ranyak wishes this measure would fund would be as worthless as the moronic DUI "schools" held in the storefronts of dying "strip malls".

http://www.amazon.com/Southern-Subculture-Drinking-Driving-Generalized/dp/081532376X/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_6

I saw this too and had similar thoughts that punishing the industry was wrong.

Here is the link to my reply.

http://www.jadecrew.com/punish-tracks-and-companies-for-jackass-drivers/

In reply to friedgreencorrado: Sarcasm aside, the street racers are just around because they are enticed by Speed and the fast lifestyle that is glorified. 1% is only 1$/100- No I don't think that sanctioned motorsports is the cause- but since the teams come to Florida they can pay and contribute to some decent drivers ed-
The tourist tax is 13%. Many licences should be revoked-including the Seniors, but that is different issue. Proficency is an issue, and so is SPEED!

Neon18 wrote: In reply to friedgreencorrado: Sarcasm aside, the street racers are just around because they are enticed by Speed and the fast lifestyle that is glorified. 1% is only 1$/100- No I don't think that sanctioned motorsports is the cause- but since the teams come to Florida they can pay and contribute to some decent drivers ed- The tourist tax is 13%. Many licences should be revoked-including the Seniors, but that is different issue. Proficency is an issue, and so is SPEED!

If the attraction is "Speed" and "lifestyle" perhaps your attentions should be focused elsewhere - like film producers, film distributors and theatre owners. It's obvious those sources have a much larger influence on those who need the discipline you demand.

Your grief is shared, your convictions are true, but your proposal is aimed at the wrong target and essentially untenable.

Neon18 wrote: No I don't think that sanctioned motorsports is the cause- but since the teams come to Florida they can pay and contribute to some decent drivers ed-

So what is your basis for taxing them again?

"I think we should tax amadillos, because they come to Florida, and should contribute to drivers' ed."

Neon18 wrote: In reply to friedgreencorrado: Sarcasm aside, the street racers are just around because they are enticed by Speed and the fast lifestyle that is glorified. 1% is only 1$/100-

It is not my problem that my beloved sport is so misunderstood by the media, and by the public at large. Why should I pay another fee because of the ignorance of others? I don't particpate in street "races", and I spend a great deal of money (sanctioning body membership fees, event entry fees, and parts to modify my cars to the rules of my sanctioning body) so that I can particpate in sanctioned motor racing.

Neon18 wrote: No I don't think that sanctioned motorsports is the cause-

Then why does your proposal choose them as your target?

Neon18 wrote: but since the teams come to Florida they can pay and contribute to some decent drivers ed-

Setting our differences upon the issue of what constitutes "decent drivers ed" aside for the moment, once again I must ask...why is it our community must pay to educate the ignorant? Their ignorance is not our fault, and not our responsibility. Personally, I've tried to do things to end their ignorance on many occasions, but my pleas have often fallen upon "deaf ears" when faced with the massive amount of media misconception that even you, yourself has suggested is "too persuasive" for the ignorant to ignore.

Neon18 wrote: The tourist tax is 13%.

And I actually don't mind paying that, when I visit Florida. After all, I am a "tourist" when I visit my mom & aunt on the Gulf Coast. I am in your state. I am enjoying your climate, your beaches, and your restaraunts. I grew up on the North Carolina Outer Banks, and we often were envious of Florida taxes upon "tourists". That money sure would help rebuild our highways & bridges every Fall after the tourist traffic beats them all to rubble during the summer...

Neon18 wrote: Many licences should be revoked-including the Seniors, but that is different issue. Proficency is an issue, and so is SPEED!

You show your own ignorance of the larger issues involved here when you say something like that. If someone possesses proficiency, speed is no longer the problem that those of you who lack such proficiency claim it is.

jadewbj wrote: I saw this too and had similar thoughts that punishing the industry was wrong. Here is the link to my reply. http://www.jadecrew.com/punish-tracks-and-companies-for-jackass-drivers/

excerpt:
"However if that argument is good for motorsports it can easily be applied to a myriad of other activities and industries. Take fashion magazines and the fashion industry for instance. They show images of crazy thin models that lead thousands of young girls to develop eating disorders. Should we tax them?"
/excerpt

Well said. Where does it stop?

It is the professionals in the paddock that aren't doing the job educating their kids, they are all about extreme sports.

• The "pro-racer" was 9 when he had his first bad crash. The broken pelvis, broken leg and body cast "didn't faze him," says his father. It was a wild and nasty spill, all right, "He was out in a field, just flying on an ATV -- and he had his roller blades on," "That had to interfere somehow. All of a sudden, he caught a rut, and he went end-over-end."

Not expecting too much help with drivers education from the adults-

OK, now you've hit a nerve with me too.

From Neon18's comments at: http://www.jadecrew.com/punish-tracks-and-companies-for-jackass-drivers/

Neon18 said: The professional racers who have kids around NEED HELP in educating the kids regarding illegal street racing AND reckless driving and Speeding beacause for the most part these “professionals are limited in their education. Most pro-racers started out very young and only have graduated from High School or have a GED. They are not specialists in children 18-23 driving behaviour. Racecar drivers and Speed fanatics are not exempt from child protection laws.

Who the hell do you think you are to call racers limited in education and suggest that they are somehow more ignorant than the general population? I forget the exact number, but well over half of the members of the SCCA (the nation's biggest amateur racing sanctioning body) have a bachelor's degree or higher. Almost 25% have a Master's degree or PhD. Most of the folks that I race with in my region are fellow Engineers. Uneducated? I think not.

Also, I believe I am an expert in the driving behaviors of children 18-23. Why? Because I'm a 25 year old male, so I was in that group not that long ago. I lost friends due to automobile crashes - crashes caused solely by their own bad decisions. No one else's.

Sanctioned racing was a savior to me. When I was 18 years old, I though I had a pretty fast car and I was a damn good driver. My first SCCA Autocross event showed me exactly how ignorant I was and how much I had to learn. I absorbed as much as I could from the very wise folks that helped me become a better driver. And as far as making stupid choices on the road? When I had the chance to get it out of my system in a safe and controlled environment, I no longer felt the need to drive like an idiot on the streets. Motorsports taught me respect for the responsibility that is operating a motor vehicle, and directly led to me making better choices on the street.

Also, before you slam racers for being irresponsible and encouraging stupidity on the streets, try reading these first.

Racers Against Street Racing BMW Car Club of America Street Survival Take it to the Track Take it to the Track Colorado SCCA Solo Competitions

I am very sorry for the loss of your daughter. It's a tragic thing that I hope I will never, ever have to go through. But to blame it on racers - it's simply ridiculous in the most basic sense of the word.

Once again I feel for the loss of a child, but the blame game here is very old. All of society teaches poor behavior, but strange as it seems, if you are around racing long enough, it is one of the better places to take a child. If you look closely enough, it teaches safety in all aspects, car control, approach, event running, etc. I would probably guess that she hasn't spent very much time at all around racing, be it professional or at the grassroots level.

Personally, I've been around racing most of my life, including crewing for professional teams and driving SCCA etc., so I know many, many people and have observed much as well. I started this during college and am now in my my late '40's. I'll restate this, most professional drivers I know are MUCH slower and more controlled on the street than the general public, and in my experience, if you participate in racing on most any level, you also drive slower and more aware.

As to racing drivers needing to step up and educate, that would be great, but it isn't their job to do so. That rests entirely on the parents to educate and produce responsible kids. Having others take responsibility for your actions is what is getting this country into the shape that it is, and this is no exception. This kind of thinking irritates me beyond all recognition, it is no one's fault but the person driving, the person riding in the car not objecting enough, and the parents for not teaching their children right from wrong. Racing does not glorify speed, it is a sport where speed is present. Just as in any sport, it teaches teamwork and to work hard to achieve goals.

The media also does a very poor job at showing proper problem solving skills and glorifies poor behavior. If you want to lay some blame, start with them, but the real problems start at home. Also, if you want to make a real difference, get the requirements changed in order to get a license. Require actual driver training like most of the rest of the free world. The US has some of the worst drivers on the planet, do a bit of research.

Sorry, rant off....

Would somebody please invite neon18 out to an autocross? I would do it, but I doubt she would be willing to travel to California for one.

It seems that her sum knowledge of the racing community comes from what is presented in the news or by Hollywood.

If she had a chance it interact with some real racers she may start to understand the community a little better. And find a way to work with the community rather than against it. At the very least she may start to understand why we react so badly to being lumped into the "fast and the furious" crowd of street racers.

Safer teen driving is a subject that strikes close to the heart of many of us. That's why so many in our community volunteer at things like the street survival school or other drivers ed related programs.

dinger wrote: OK, now you've hit a nerve with me too.

I was gonna make a comment, but I'm not a racer just a craptastic autocrosser. Not really a specialist in children aged 18-23 since I don't have any. But, wait I taught college aged kids (18-23 year olds) for 3 years. While I may know little about their driving behavior, I know very well many of their parents didn't instill a sense of right and wrong. There are a few pieces of paper that say I have a BS and a MS, those must be fake.

So Neon18, please STFU. Your comments are insulting, most of the racers I know have college degrees and many have college and high school aged kids. If you want to learn then go to an autocross or a road race and interact with them before spewing your drivel on the internet. You will discover most of them are highly educated, willing to help, and drive sedately on public roads because they know the risks. It appears your impression is solely based on isolated incidents.

There are two ways to playing connect the dots. One is following the numbers and getting the picture that's on the box. The other is what my three year old nephew does, which is scribble along and make a vague caricature of the actual image. You are doing the latter, you have some isolated dots of information and your picture doesn't look exactly like what's on the box.

Neon18, if you really are the mother of the girl killed in the crash, please accept my sympathies. As the father of a soon to be 13 year old daughter, I can catch a small glimpse of the pain you must feel.

Now on to business. I started riding minibikes and dirt bikes whren I was 5 and got started in sanctioned motorsports at the ripe old age of 12, racing motocross. Yeah, it was dangerous. Yeah, I got hurt a few times. But it satisfied a deep need in me to push my limits, to see just what I was made of. That kept me from street racing when I got older; I knew I could go do something crazy on a dirt bike and thus I didn't need to wave my gigantic speed penis on the street. Some of my buddies thought I was some kind of wuss because I didn't street race. I didn't support it then and I don't support it now.

My dad owned a chain of speed shops when I was in my teens, I worked for him and one thing I learned very quickly: the guys who raced for real didn't screw around on the streets in no small part because they knew the average idiot has no idea of how to really control a car. That lesson has stayed with me for years.

So I am another example of how sanctioned motorsports has helped save lives. I have had friends who were seriously injured and a couple die while participating in motorsports. If it is figured on the number of deaths or injuries per 100,000 participants, the rate of injury and death as a result of sanctioned racing is FAR lower than it is for the average schmucks driving on the highways. I'm not a Pollyanna, I fully realize that every time I climb behind the wheel or grab the bars it could come out very badly. But I see that the risk is far lower than that I experience on the public streets and the game is worth the candle.

Now you feel that since your daughter's idiot friend was racing to watch a sanctioned race when the accident occurred that somehow sanctioned motorsport is responsible for her death and you want to hang a tax on it (sort of like the scarlet 'A') to punish that subculture for her death. Nope, not a good idea.

Let me ask you this: had she died in the crash of a commercial airliner would you demand a 1% tax to educate other potential passengers of the dangers of commercial air travel? And base that on the ads they run continually showing all the great places you can go, never mentioning the fact that there is a chance you will die in a huge ball of fire? I thought not.

Again, I sympathize with you for the loss of your daughter and yes it would be good to do something in her memory which could cut down on street racing. But you are going about all wrong.

Neon, I'd happily take you to an Autocross. Yes, Im serious. PM me if you are willing to come and see our world. I'm even a teenager, so you could see how racing all my life has affected my street driving. Please take me up on this offer. You're in Florida, no?

Oh, and I've already turned 3 or 4 street racing friends into autocrossers.

Neon18 wrote: It is the professionals in the paddock that aren't doing the job educating their kids, they are all about extreme sports. - The "pro-racer" was 9 when he had his first bad crash. The broken pelvis, broken leg and body cast "didn't faze him," says his father. It was a wild and nasty spill, all right, "He was out in a field, just flying on an ATV -- and he had his roller blades on," "That had to interfere somehow. All of a sudden, he caught a rut, and he went end-over-end." Not expecting too much help with drivers education from the adults-

Cynthia, once again...I am sorry for your loss. But if you are going to continue this style of debate, the only thing you will accomplish here is the creation of a very dedicated movement to insure your proposal is defeated. I know that after reading what you've posted here that if I were a FL resident, I'd be spending my own money (or what's left of it after I've built my cars to the point where I can participate in sanctioned racing) to expose just how misled your reaction to her death actually is.

In my own opinion, you're ignoring everything we've said, you're refusing to reply to the points of discussion we've raised, and you keep posting up these "quotes" you've allegedly (after all, you do not even post a link to a local news article containing the quotes in your messages) overheard somewhere as "evidence" that real motor racing actuallly conforms to the bizarre concept of it that you have in your mind.

If you do not wish to have an honest conversation about these issues with us, then please just leave here, and post to places full of people who already agree with you. All you are doing here is showing that you're too angry to listen to others, and that you don't know enough about our sport to have any buisiness talking about it in the first place.

My 1% tax "proposal" was an idea that came out of 3 tries to get this street- racing bill passed. The writer of this article thought that my idea had some merit, or he wouldn't have written it. The Louis Ortega street racing bill was a huge effort and since it was a bill of compromise, it is just a starting point. The street racing language was found to be unconstitutional in 2007 and it was rewritten, from 5 lines to one full page of legal language. The fines and penalties were just added AND since there is little support for the Policing of illegal street racing, the new track in Orlando is supposed to help keep the kids off the street. I am doubtful that kids who have the urge to race will wait until Friday night. Legalizing Street Racing is just a placator, since the economy is down, the street racing deaths are also down...less money for gas, insurance etc. Being Angry about the loss of my daughter's life is my burden and certainly I would never wish this on anyone. The professional racing undustry is very happy to include kids under 18 in their garages and in their circle. The "ladder systems " for professional racing need to reach out to the kids who are on the sidelines. looking in to what is not in reach for them. And ALSO teach the concept of Graduated Drivers Lisencing. The Pro RAcing promoters love to brag how their kids "Have permission to race, but not lisenced to drive." ..we have all heard this. All of these kids go to school and have friends ; Racecar drivers are not specialists in Child Psychology. Most of them barely have a high school education and should not be in charge of regulating anything but their cars. When you include kids in the program, MORE is expected not less. Race car professionals are not an excluded class for child protection. Considering that most 18 year olds are just beginning to maneuver around their world and they are just learning how to drive on the highways of life, the professionals should advocate Graduated Drivers Lisencing for kids and stop bragging about how their drivers have "permission" to race etc. Skill and Judgement are very different. Skill is learned and judgement is aquired by lifetime experience.
When my daughter was killed by "Vehicular Homicide" the first (now annual) Honda Grand Prix race was happening that Saturday morning in St, Petersburgh. The racing promoters who are selling Honda Civics (transportation vehicle) to their friends and family at the racing venues are NOT driving Honda transportation vehicles themselves. They drive Lamborghinis, Ferrari, BMW's, and Mercedes, that can hold the road, pushing to pass at 95 mph. Selling Hondas to kids and racing Honda Motors on the race track should require some regulations-
The person who wrote the article in the Sentinel obviously thought the idea of a 1% surcharge for professional racing tickets and SEMA after-market gear was a viable suggestion or the editor on chief would not have printed it. Why should education and the law regarding street racing be the burden for the victim's family when the professional racing community wants the market share of our kids 18-21?
In our case, History repeated itself because the young man's Uncle did the same thing when he was 20. Some "accidents" can be prevented and history will continue to repeat itself if nothing changes. Considering the boy "grew up with them" and everyone in the family was aware of the dreams and aspirations of being a PRO Racing Business Manager, I would expect much more than "oh he has driven all kinds of vehicles" and excuses!The assumption that skill and judgement are the same is a problem for kids, obviously. When my daughter buckled her seatbelt, she wasn't signing up for an Indy 500 practice session AND the co-instigator of this 3 car head on collision drove away without a ticket or a warning. Just another Blow-bye in Orlando. The street racing incident that killed my daughter was MORE violent than any of the crashes that I have seen on the track at Indy.. Of course when Doug Herbet's kids went out were killed violently by reckless driving and he developed B.R.A.K.E.S a month later, the pro's are all so full of sorrow and sipport. "Sorry for your loss" is a very shallow expression in the world of American Professional Autosports for the civilian, Florida- taxpayer. One year later, a young man from BCC also was killed in the exact spot. A pro-golfer was another statistic, and so the dead victims of illegal street racing need a voice and an advocate. Neon18 was formed for that purpose. If children are going to be involved in professional autosports, please include the PSA regarding Graduated Drivers Licensing. Our children are our most valuable resource. Also, Neon18 is trademarked and officially registered in Florida so do not post false statements- SPEED KILLS.