Super Excited for my Daughter

It's not about doing anything bad, it's more about "what are boys doing that they can't be around girls or vice versa?"

T.J. said:

In reply to alfadriver :

I agree with your idea, but I'm not sure why you assume boys have to be doing something bad?

I'm actually not assuming anything.  Good or bad, what are boys doing that can't have girls around doing it as well?  Other than showing off their hootus.  I honestly can't picture anything.   I guess I used the word "bad" because I very much can't picture any "good" things that would require boys only.  

Good or bad, what do boys need to do that requires no girls around?

IMO the "let boys be boys without girls around" statement has nothing to do with them being heathens or hellions, and everything to do with avoiding the chest-puffing that boys do when trying to impress little Sally.  It really gets in the way of teamwork, problem-solving, and sharing of ideas that are sometimes called "soft" when they're maybe just "considerate".

Boys can also sometimes be louder and more boisterous than girls. It's a good thing  for girls to be with other girls and not be drowned out.

In reply to AngryCorvair :

At some point, boys need to learn to not do that, right?  So wouldn’t it be better to teach them young and often?  If they are going to work in the real world, that behavior needs to be dealt with. 

fifty said:

Boys can also sometimes be louder and more boisterous than girls. It's a good thing  for girls to be with other girls and not be drowned out.

Aren’t some girls also loud and boisterous?  Again, it’s not good behavior as one ages, so it seems to me that the earlier it’s dealt with, the better. 

In reply to alfadriver :

So what happens when the boys hit puberty and realize that on average they are bigger, faster, stronger, taller? Without separation girls would learn to not play sports and boys would learn they can dominate girls. I like your idea of early exposure, but I still think there also needs to be times where things are separated. Interesting discussion. 

My kid's scouting experience:

Week 1 - intro meeting at elementary school

Week 2 - go sell popcorn at Publix

Week 3 - nope

Seriously. The first organized activity after the intro was "go peddle popcorn". Fly the berkeley off.

Dirty little secret : if you have an Aldi near by, check out the cookies. Thin Mints, Peanut Butter Patties, and Samoas. 

You're welcome. 

Another eagle here, I love the idea that anyone could have some of the experiences I had.

That said, scouting has a lot of other problems currently and I'm not sure "allowing" girls will fix it. At the end I hardly wanted to go on lots of our troop stuff since all the other kids were weird. I'm weird, so in general if i think someone else is weird they are really really weird.

My point is, good luck getting any girls to join the troop I was part of when I turned 18. The troop I joined (same troop, different people) when I was 10 was a very different place. As you can see I was not happy with the trend.

T.J. said:

Acknowledging that males and females are different is a long way from the "he man woman haters" club.

Nobody said that.

insinuating that anyone who doesn't like the change somehow hates women

Nobody insinuated that.

letting a boy do boy things

Nobody has yet provided a single legitimate example of what one of these is, let alone defined this term as a whole.  If not just making bad excuses for worse behavior, as it seems to be most commonly used for...What exactly is it???

Maybe I am misreading your comments or something.

I think you may be right.

T.J. said:

So what happens when the boys hit puberty and realize that on average they are bigger, faster, stronger, taller? 

Scouts, and similar such youth groups, are focused around fostering teamwork, leadership, personal growth, knowledge, and fundamental skills that any (and every) child can (and should) learn...With each individuals athletic size, speed, strength, or physical prowess over their fellow Scouts having little or nothing to do with it.

From what I've seen so far, it appears that 100% of the people with 1st hand experience in similar type coed youth groups have seen that the coed-Scouting-alarmists fears are completely unfounded, and 100% of coed-Scouting-alarmists have zero 1st hand experience with similar type coed youth groups.  As far as I can tell it's mainly just more of the human nature to fear that which they don't understand, and change in general.

Driven5 said:

 

From what I've seen so far, it appears that 100% of the people with 1st hand experience in similar type coed youth groups have seen that the coed-Scouting-alarmists fears are completely unfounded, and 100% of coed-Scouting-alarmists have zero 1st hand experience with similar type coed youth groups.  As far as I can tell it's mainly just more of the human nature to fear that which they don't understand, and change in general.

Except that the current model for Scouting is not co-ed. Boys and girls will be divided into separate Dens.

"Venturing" is a co-ed type of scouting that already exists  https://www.scouting.org/programs/venturing/ , but this is a separate program.

alfadriver said:

Here's something I don't understand- the "need" for boys to be boys without girls around.

What in the world are they doing that they can't handle girls being around?  I was never a scout, so I don't know.

As for worrying about their hormones- that doesn't come on until later, and isn't it a good thing to make sure kids know how to deal with each other on an equal basis at an early age?  Seems like that should reduce some dumber sexual tension and perhaps reduce assaults.  

Let kids be kids, together.  Regardless (of anything).

So, Cub Scouts, which run from ages 7-10 have been coed now for awhile. Nobody seems to have an issue with it at that age range. Boy Scouts, which will now just be "Scouts", is for ages 11-17. These are ages that hormones are absolutely something worth considering. For the kids that are currently in cub  scouts, and will grow up with coed troops being "the norm", I don't foresee too many issues as they age into Scouts. But I can understand some concern when suddenly allowing 11-17 year old girls into environments that have previously been all-boys. Hopefully keeping the units separated by gender will alleviate some of those concerns, but it also won't allow them to "be kids together" like you suggest.

My wife got an email from the local Girl Scouts council last night about this change.  They are none too pleased. Maybe the competition will make them get off their duffs and vice versus for the bsa. 

In reply to Driven5 :

If you read the earlier posts, you will see that your points 1 & 2 are incorrect  I provided an example that is not scouting related that addresses yor third point. 

STM317 said:

 

So, Cub Scouts, which run from ages 7-10 have been coed now for awhile. 

Nope. Boy and girl Dens are separate. 

STM317 said:

But I can understand some concern when suddenly allowing 11-17 year old girls into environments that have previously been all-boys. Hopefully keeping the units separated by gender will alleviate some of those concerns, but it also won't allow them to "be kids together" like you suggest.

Already exists in Venturing.

alfadriver said:

Here's something I don't understand- the "need" for boys to be boys without girls around.

Because boys are fearful and insecure, and their greatest fear is girls. 

Boys growing up to be men is a hard process, and begins with boys being OK with being boys. 

Its not about bad behavior, or waving their hootus.  It's about finding a way for them to come to terms with their own identity and fears. 

Our society is so homogenized now that boys have very few places they can just be themselves without it including the subliminal feminization message that they are not OK, and that they should act more civilized, like girls. 

For the record, I don't think Scouts solves this problem. It does have the problem of being a "boy's club". (Although, I have never met an Eagle Scout whose character I did not respect).

We've got to figure out how to help boys be OK with themselves, and not keep telling them they'd be better if they were girls. 

I once coached a baseball team of 12 year olds. Every girl in the entire league (4) was on my team. I watched several boys on other teams walk off the mound and never return to pitching after hitting a girl with a pitch. That's fear. (And very unfortunate).

There are very few people who would dare say that the GSA should allow boys, or that our wives should not have "girls nights out". 

There is a time and a place for gender segregation. It's OK. 

fifty said:

STM317 said:

But I can understand some concern when suddenly allowing 11-17 year old girls into environments that have previously been all-boys. Hopefully keeping the units separated by gender will alleviate some of those concerns, but it also won't allow them to "be kids together" like you suggest.

Already exists in Venturing.

Yes, kind of...Venturing is ages 14-20. So no middle schoolers. A higher (relative) maturity level probably comes into play there. Also, I can't find data to show what percentage of Venturers are male/female but I think it would be interesting to see. I do know that there are far fewer Venturers out there compared to Boy Scout members. Venturers have something like 190k youth members while Boy Scouts have over 2.5 million. I don't know if that speaks to a lack of interest in Venturers, or not.

In reply to SVreX :

Why shouldn’t the Girl Scouts accept boys?  The campfire girls are just campfire now and accept everyone. 

I was the second post in this thread with the 'about time' one liner. Then I saw where this was going and didn't look in again until this morning.

From what I've read here it sounds like both boy and girl scouts need a big shake up.

Scouting was done differently in England when I was a kid. First off I'll say Scouts was one of the best things that ever happened to me as a child and teenager in the late 70's early 80's. People who know me now find it hard to believe, but as a young person I was massively shy and insecure. Part of that was a verbally bullying father, but also being Dyslexic and ADHD (before that was given any attention or consideration) I wasn't that good at school and couldn't read or write at grade level for a long time. Scouts gave me an awesome opportunity to mix with different people, learn through hands on experience, learn that I actually have great leaderships skills and develop camaraderie and talents that would never have had a chance to flourish though other avenues available to me. I will never forget as a youngish kid (maybe 10) we were split into teams to build bridges on tables. I knew about triangles so my team won. The next week we went outside and built a bridge over the river using elements of my teams bridge, we then walked across it. That was literally a turning point in my life.  I honestly don’t think that without the self confidence that Scouting instilled in me I would have managed to get into Engineering and I would certainly never have moved over here.  We also played games that were even being banned by the time I left such as 'British Bulldogs' which had a high oportunity for getting hurt.  As well as the fun stuff of camping, hicking, building things, sailing, climbing etc. we did community service, attended church services (even as an adult athiest I have no problem with that) put on skits, plays and more.

When I moved here in 94 it was around the time the anti-gay behavior of the Scouts was in the headlines and I was shocked and appalled that a group that was supposed to be all about inclusion and developing skills for themselves and to help the community could have such a horrible exclusionary attitude.

Over here Scouting and Guides seem to be run through schools.  That wasn’t the case for me.  I lived in a rural village of about 10,000 people.  The Scouts and Guides had their own property that was in use 5 evenings per week for meetings and most weekends for some activity or other.  That building had two large rooms so different groups could be there at the same time.  There was a kitchen, offices and down below in a sort of series of walk out basements there was storage for camping equipment, stoves, rope and other essentials.  Early evening there was either ‘Cub Scouts’ (for the younger boys) or ‘Brownies’ (for the younger girls), later there was either ‘Boy Scouts’ or ‘Girl Guides’ for the highschoolers (11-17) and sometimes Ventures.  This was all on a property with a large field by a river that we could build bridges or death slides over, yes we could call them death slides then.  I don’t actually know how it was all paid for, the dues weren’t that high and we never had to whore out overpriced fat making cookies or popcorn.  Because it was independent of the schools, we mixed with kids from other schools in the area there, which again was great for me as being outside my normal school environment helped me have the confidence I lacked at school.  Also the leaders weren’t necessarily (although they often were or started out as) parents.

Having daughters not sons over here, the eldest had no interest, the youngest we did have in girl scouts for a few years, partly because our kids went to a private school away from the area and we thought it would be a good way to help her socialize with other local kids.  It wasn’t a patch on what I experienced as a kid, but they still did go camping, did Ropes courses, archery etc. 

I really hope that a more inclusive Scouting organization can give kids the same amazing experience as I had.

P.S.  Boy Scout popcorn is the biggest con ever.  I refuse to buy it, I just donate $20 instead.

Boy Scout popcorn is also embarrassing to sell, based purely on cost. As a guide, here is the breakdown of where the money goes when a scout pack sells popcorn. 1/3 goes to the manufacturer, 1/3 goes to the district council for administration and other costs, and 1/3 goes to the individual pack.

On a related note, I went to co-ed grammar school, but then in High School my parents sent me to a Jesuit all-male school.  In retrospect, this was probably a great decision on their part.  Even now, when I meet someone who, like me, went to an all-male high school, we reminisce about our experiences and agree that part of what made it what it was was the fact that it wasn't co-ed.  I've had a lot of people give me the opposite opinion- but none of them actually experienced it; all of their education was co-ed.

I don't necessarily subscribe to the notion that being a "man" is under attack in any sort of organized manner.  However some trends (more children being born out of wedlock, a scarcity of employees for certain traditionally-male occupations, etc) could point to a larger issue with how we're raising kids these days.  Boys and Girls are different, and perhaps it's beneficial for them, while not completely segregating them, to have some developmental time independently.

We have two children- the oldest a girl (almost 4), and the youngest a boy (15 months).  They have access to the same toys and for the most part we allow them independent play.  And we have observed differences in how they play, and what they play with.  Also interesting: our daughter seems to prefer to spend time with me, while our son is all about his mom.  I'm sure their age has something to do with this as well.  But it will be interesting to see how they develop and if/how this changes.

TL;DR, I have no issue with BSA becoming just 'Scouts', but I'm also glad to hear they will keep boys and girls separate within the mix.  

EDIT: just looked at the cover picture.  When I was in Cub Scouts I built that exact same toolbox.  I still have it- use it to store drill bits.  Never painted it.