Switching jobs, or not switching jobs. Etiquette questions

In reply to jharry3 :

It's not an economic theory question, that is the inflation thread. This is the help a trusted and valued member of the board decide if he should switch jobs. 

To expand on what I said earlier about holding the other offer in front of your current employer for a raise. I have been involved in this a time or 3.

1- Great employee, well compensated but wanted more. He actually worked in a different department. I knew what he was doing and I had a higher level job in my department. I worked with him and HR, he got a new job in the company, higher paying with added responsibility. He has moved up 2 more steps since then. That said the ultimatum comes up still when doing team evaluations (usually by HR). This was 4 years ago and it is less frequent.

2- Great employee, was underpaid but only 1 year out of school. He had another offer, we offered him a 10% raise, he left anyway. For him I am glad he did. He flourished at the new role, we would have held him back.

3- My wife's boss did this at her last job. The job gave her everything she asked for. She quit 6 months later. Lot's of hard feelings on both sides of that deal.

Yeah, count me in with the majority above.

Use the other offer to give yourself the confidence to ask for the raise you deserve, but keep it to yourself and don't use it as a weapon against your current employer.

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

You are underpaid. You are a critical component of the success of the operations of the theatre. You work for a non-profit, and therefore budgets are arbitrary. The only thing they'd have to do to pay you more is a little more fundraising. 
 

Ive seen your work, and am familiar with your industry. 
 

Ask for a raise. 
 

Don't muddy the waters with mentioning another job offer. 
 

And don't just ask for a raise... ask for a good raise. $2500 is a joke. Don't undersell yourself. 
 

Use an inflation calculator to see how much you are losing. For example, if you were hired in 2015 and haven't had a raise, inflation has consumed 15.7% of what you were originally paid. You are losing $6293 per year. 
 

The day you were hired, they guessed at your value. Now they KNOW your value. Your salary should be inflation adjusted PLUS something to cover the value you uniquely bring to their organization. 
 

I know you care about this theatre, and want to support it. But working for less than market value does not help them- it hurts them. Consider this... if you were hit by a bus today, how would they replace you?  They haven't budgeted for your true value, and won't be able to hire someone at the going market rate. 
 

We all know you won't fit in well at that other school. Just ask for a raise. 
 

 

This and the rest of SVreX's advice in this thread is sound.  (His advice in other threads is also usually sound too but I don't want to mention that and give him a swelled head.)

I'm sure that I've left money on the table in the past with this policy but I've always been upfront with my employers about why I'm staying or leaving a positions and those decisions have almost never been about money.

One thing I feel I need to add is that while it's reasonable to let your employers know that you're underpaid and undervalued they may not be able to do anything about it.  I've served on the boards of several non-profits and we always knew that we were underpaying.  We appreciated it when we had really great people working for us but also understood when they moved on.  I've also had to let some good industry people go (or not hire them in the first place) because we couldn't pay them what they're worth.

I don't think it's relevant here but there are also employees who aren't worth what they think they are and employers who refuse to pay good employees what they're worth despite the fact that they could.  Even in those conditions I still think an honest open dialogue is important.

I didn't really hold a job offer over my current employers head, I did things a little differently and it turned out great. 
The thread with more detail is HERE

My difference is I decided not to hold it over them. I weighed my options, decided I had to take the offer. I turned in my notice. They didn't want me to leave and did what they could do to keep me. That being said, money was not the issue. I kept it out of play intentionally. 

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

So I have two takes.

First is you have to evaluate the value of teaching two classes a semester. That should be worth more than $5,000 of your time.

As for addressing your current employer. Inform them that you have another offer for what very similar role, And that it entails a greater financial compensation, however do not disclose how much, inform them of all the positive things that you like about the job and how in spite of the high amount of work hours that you generally enjoy greatly what you do and having the control to execute your vision and that you find that important both personally and in the ability to do your job from a professional standpoint. Express your desire to have more assistance from people that are accountable for their work and time (i.e. compensated) and see what they're willing to do for you. It may be an increase in pay, It may not be an increase in pay but it may be a compensated paid assistant for 20 hours a week. It may be a paid assistant for 10 hours a week and a small increase in compensation. But do not disclose what the dollar amount of the other offer is, it will limit how high they're willing to go and it also may be perceived as petty if it's less than a 20% increase (whether that projection is correct or incorrect), by expressing that you have an offer that pays more but informing them of the things that you like about your current position and how it puts you in a position where you can succeed, you're giving them more good than bad and it communicates that you want to stay with them so they'll be more likely to want to put you in a position to retain you long-term and to make it so other alternatives won't be tempting if they're brought before you (assuming that they have their heads on straight). 

If the relationship is good and the perks are nice, that in itself is worth money. How much depends on you. 

My admin works for me because I don't care what she does on her time and I don't test for it. She took a fairly large pay cut to work here but hated her other job and wanted more vacation days. I actually stole her from a customer. All I care about is that she gets her work done. At the moment she's all caught up and watching twitch about some game she plays. She's been here 4 years and seems to be perfectly happy.

Have there been any raises since you were hired? If not then I would definitely ask. As an employer, I give annual raises. At a minimum, cost of living increases and up to several dollars per hour. 

Good luck with whatever you decide. 

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

2x on everything said (as I'm now reading the thread in full). 

jharry3 said:

In reply to STM317 : (Starbucks)

This will work until Starbucks prices its already expensive  warm sugar drinks out of the market in order to cover $23/hour counter workers

I think you're misinterpretting what Starbucks is. They're not selling coffee. They're selling a luxury lifestyle and status symbol, and it is a cheap one that almost anybody can afford. They'll be fine. 

If there are an average of 3 employees working at each store, and all of them get a $10 an hour raise, open 15 hours a day and 500 customers a day... That means that they have to charge each customer $0.90 more. How many of those customers are getting multiple drinks, or a drink and a biscuit? And, they're not giving a $10 an hour raise.

If my kid was 15 right now, I'd be telling her to get a night shift at Starbucks a few times a week, and to stick with it through college. Good chance that they're management at that point, and either run up through the Starbucks ranks, or else have some spectacular benefits already there (head start on 401k, possibly college tuition help, etc.) and great resume fodder. 

But I digress. This is away from what the thread is about. Curtis, you're worth more than you're getting paid, and it isn't uncouth to ask for what you're worth.

In reply to jharry3 :

You act as if Starbucks isn't hedging it's bets that marijuana doesn't become federally legal within the next decade and that they become the world's largest Amsterdam inspired coffee chain in the world. If you think that they don't already have the business model for this, I have news for you. 

captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to jharry3 :

You act as if Starbucks isn't hedging it's bets that marijuana doesn't become federally legal within the next decade and that they become the world's largest Amsterdam inspired coffee chain in the world. If you think that they don't already have the business model for this, I have news for you. 

Mind. Blown.

jharry3 said:

In reply to STM317 : (Starbucks)

This will work until Starbucks prices its already expensive  warm sugar drinks out of the market in order to cover $23/hour counter workers

They could probably offset a lot of that with lower rates of turnover and absenteeism from their workers who would presumably be happier and higher quality. This leads to increased productivity for the business.

Which as others have already pointed out  has value to an employer and is something that Curtis can apply to his situation as well. It takes a lot of time and money to get a new employee up to speed. It would be difficult or impossible to replace Curtis, especially at his current rate of pay. That gives him leverage. Even if the business cannot afford to increase his salary, perhaps that leverage can be used to gain other perks to make Curtis happier.

In reply to mtn :

I mean that's not even that progressive of a thought process by them. They did briefly consider converting their good star reward points into a form of cryptocurrency, but that has been shelved at least temporarily. 

Both ideas when I found out about them caused me to purchase their stock, and I don't even drink their coffee (That being said I will grab a snack from them on rare occasion and take zero issue with any of their business practices). 

captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:

First is you have to evaluate the value of teaching two classes a semester. That should be worth more than $5,000 of your time.

This deserves to be repeated. If the offer is not for same work, the money cannot be compared 1:1... Especially when it's for equivalent work plus additional duties and responsibilities. For that alone I would expect the other job to pay noticeably better, in addition to the NFP vs private school.

I have done exactly this. I realized I was being paid a LOT less than millwrights were being paid in the area. I filled out an application, had an interview at a local lumber mill and was offered a job at a significant pay rise. I did not want that job. In a glue factory there are many ways to get hurt. In a lumber mill there are even more ways to get dead or maimed, particularly in that line of work. I had been at the plant I was in for some time and through 3 different corporate owners and the low wages of the first owner/management team carried over relatively unchanged.

I eschewed my direct manager and went straight to the plant manager. My direct manager was an amazing guy but middle managements job is to stop that kind of stuff from going upstream. I said I had been offered a job at $XX per hour at (insert mill name) but would rather stay put and asked if they could match it.  She said she didn't know if it was possible but would ask.  An hour later I was called to the office and told that after discussing it with corporate they bested that offer by a few dollars an hour. 

I still kick myself for not trying sooner. My lack of self confidence in the situation, considering I had personally designed and fabricated 70% percent of the production line was laughable. But that is what happens when you are treated like crap for years.

Curtis, your job sounds way too awesome to risk upsetting in any way by presenting another job offer as a way of getting a raise, especially a small one. Having gone from a low-stress job with low pay in the before-times to a high-stress job with 2x+ the pay and a much lower cost of living in the WFH era, I still sometimes ask myself if it's worth it (I try to look at the big picture and tell myself it will pay off in the long term).

If you don't even want to ask for a raise on merit or market value, you could ask for one due to recent inflation - this is a super-benign way to ask for a raise and may get the people handling the purse-strings to think about how much you're really worth while they're at it. If the difference in wages is in the 10~15% range you may get most or perhaps even all of what you're looking for this way with the smallest possible risk of changing management's feelings about you.

Lots of good advice here in this thread.  In full disclosure, I know nothing, nadda, zip about theater industry, but in general it's a sellers market, and everyone is hiring, so the raise discussion shouldn't be shocking to your management.  From people on this thread that seem to know your skillset, you are talented at what you do, and at $20 / hr seem underpaid.  You can't hire and keep unskilled construction workers for that kind of money currently.  Skilled craft with some overtime etc. are approaching six figures in many parts of the country in certain industries.

I am always an advocate of the value proposition speech.  If you are providing more value than your salary, your paid below market conditions, etc. those are all reasonable conversations to have.  The what would it cost to replace you question someone asked above is a good one.

In reply to mtn :

Starbucks franchises are actually structured intentionally that they almost never make a profit. 
 

So it really doesn't matter whether they raise their rates or not. 
 

(It's a bit of a long story to explain, and doesn't fit here. But I have quite a bit of behind the scenes knowledge on this one)

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to mtn :

Starbucks franchises are actually structured intentionally that they almost never make a profit. 
 

So it really doesn't matter whether they raise their rates or not. 
 

(It's a bit of a long story to explain, and doesn't fit here. But I have quite a bit of behind the scenes knowledge on this one)

To continue down this tangent... Are they actually franchises? I was under the impression that they're all owned by corporate with the only exceptions being places that are licensed to sell their stuff, but not an actual Starbucks location (like what you see in bookstores and hospitals). It was explained to me as, there is no reason for them to franchise as they have no reason to raise any capital, they have more than enough.

EDIT: And that is one of the reasons that a barista there is such a great job for young people in school. You're an employee of Starbucks, with 349,000 colleagues, not Smith Brothers Starbucks Enterprises LLC, one of 20 people.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

You've got mail. 

In reply to mtn :

Well, I was TRYING not to go there!! Haha!

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to mtn :

Well, I was TRYING not to go there!! Haha!

My bad.

In reply to mtn :

They are technically not franchises, they are licensed operators. 
 

But each store is designed to not be profitable. The licensees are required to buy everything from Corporate (milk, napkins, cups, everything). Even if they can buy it cheaper locally. 
 

Operator licenses are granted generally to corporations to whom the Starbucks represents less than 3% of their gross revenue. That why we see them in hospitals, etc. 
 

Once operational, many operators learn they are not profitable. But because they represent such a small percentage of their gross revenue, the vast majority of operators decide to keep them operational as a value added to their primary business. (IE: hospitals let them operate in the red, but their patients and staff prefer doing business with them because there is a Starbucks in the lobby). They typically increase revenues to the primary business, even if the coffee side runs negative.

Starbucks corporate makes plenty of money selling operators product. 
 

Owning Starbucks stock is a great investment. Hoping to make profits operating an individual location- not so much. 
 

That's also the primary reason independent coffee shops struggle.  They are trying to replicate a business model (WiFi, comfy leather sofa, etc) which is being subsidized by a major conglomerate. Hard to compete. 
 

Now back to our regularly scheduled program...

Ok... lots to unpack and (as always) you folks approach things wonderfully and I feel like you are all little angels and devils sitting on my shoulders.  That's exactly what I need.  Voices.

So... while there are massive pros to my current job and the board loves me to death, they love me in the most superficial way.  They know I work there, they sometimes get my job title right when they introduce me to their friends, but all they know is that I get a paycheck and shows happen.  Their grasp of the amount of time, energy, and workflow that goes into it is non existent.  They know I work hard, but they are ultimately clueless.

The reality is:  If I got hit by a bus, the board would send flowers to my funeral, suggest a selection committee for next month's board meeting, spend three months developing a job listing with a job description (that, ironically, I wrote), and likely move slower than molasses and try to get someone for next fall.  In the meantime they would try to fill in with volunteers, sets would be E36 M3, people might get injured or worse, shows would close, we would lose about $60k in revenue per month because we have no physical scenery to go with the art, and the doors would close on a 97 year old institution.  The board just doesn't know, and no amount of explaining it with words can give them an accurate picture.

So, while I feel appreciated, can it really be called appreciation if they don't even know what it is I do?  An example.  I'm paid a yearly salary and since we don't do any shows in July or August, I take that time off with pay.  Those were the terms of my employment... much like a teacher.  One year when money was tight the board chair informed me (via the temp working in the office) that they could only pay me 2 weeks that summer.  I submitted a spreadsheet of my last three months that I had compiled showing an average of 58 hours/wk.  I tactfully told him if he did that, I would seek other employment and offered to start using timecards if he felt he wasn't getting his 2000 hours/yr for his money, but I also said that if that time clock happens, I will expect every penny of overtime at time and a half and showed the math where that would make me almost a 6-figure employee.  My Executive director and Artistic director backed me up and volunteered to reduce their salary so they could afford to keep me.  That is the kind of obliviousness that makes me question how much I want to work there.

The community loves me.  My coworkers appreciate me (and I them).  My Exec Director appreciates me.  The board is a flaming pile of dung that loves me but thinks I'm as replaceable as a Starbucks Barista.  The work is SO fulfilling.  The lack of oversight or nannying is wonderful.  But the board is all business... mind you, a business that doesn't know how the business works.

I just watched this exact scenario play out at another theater in town.  The production manager operated brilliantly and kept a huge touring house working smoothly for 8 years.  When he resigned suddenly (long story, but they accused him of doing something he didn't do) they thought they would just start looking for a new PM.  They are now being sued by Neko Case, Indigo Girls, and some comedian because there was no staff to even let them in the building, none of the rider was fulfilled, and they couldn't perform. The rest of the touring artists canceled or go dropped because there was no staff.  They didn't realize how much it is a moving train, and if it stops for even one day you're screwed.

The other thing is that I just got a raise in August when they brought me back after being furloughed.  I was making $35k, now I'm making just under $40k.  Nice raise, and I feel as if it sorta catches me up for my 6 years of service there, but still not what I'm worth.  As I said, I'm not money driven, but I am 48 and do need to think about retirement.  I love the job enough that I would keep working for pennies, but my logical side is telling me that it's not about what I want, it's about what I deserve and what will allow me to retire before my funeral.

I'm not money motivated, I'm freedom motivated. Money buys you freedom, it buys you time. As a single guy, your money requirements - especially with your mortgage - are a lot less than mine as the main breadwinner for a family, and you certainly do get significant amounts of time off. 

But it is really time to stop and ask what you're worth. Because you have a TON of experience, and you're good at what you do. Accounting for inflation, I was making as much as you are now when I graduated college and my job title was "Seasonal Employee". 

Put this another way: with inflation, you have been making less and less each year until this raise. Now you're back to where you started. So... There are no merit increases in all that time? No bonuses? 

The only thing that would make me suggest that staying there without demanding a substantial increase in your salary is a good idea is the summers off thing. 

Now, what is substantial increase... Well, you're apparently responsible for $60k in revenue a month. Why not ask for $55k? It isn't greed. You're a 48 year old with a ton of experience and a ton of talent. That comes with a price.

Also, you say "The board just doesn't know, and no amount of explaining it with words can give them an accurate picture." Ok, so don't explain it with words. Explain it with numbers. Show them the $60k in monthly revenue that would be lost. Show them what happened to the other local theatre and how much money they lost doing that, and how much they're gettig sued for now. Show them how much set design would cost if they outsourced it. Show them how much you're working, put it against your salary, then show them what a barista makes. Show them numbers, come in prepared, and know your value and don't be afraid of swinging it around. 

After reading all this, I'd work at Starbucks and volunteer at the theater....