Duke, I sent you an email awhile back, did you get it?
My interest is not in comparing myself to the Joneses, it's more about - could I live a better, easier life, spend more time with kids, have less stress, etc, by just taking on a bit more debt (say, for a new minivan or something?)
Duke said:tuna55 said:Anyway in there was the ubiquitous quote "Americans are the richest people ever to live on this planet", but I am not sure I believe that quote. Not really. I don't know anyone who could afford one servant.
Perhaps that speaks to how much better off the 'servant class' is now, rather than how much worse off the 'middle class' is.
The fact that it sounds weird to even say 'servant class' in this day and age speaks volumes.
That's an interesting point. I don't honestly have much information on how well servants were taken care of. Certainly better than slaves of colonial America, but likely worse than lower-middle class modern America. This was an occupation, they were not prisoners.
pheller said:Duke, I sent you an email awhile back, did you get it?
No, I don't believe I did, or it may have been filtered. Please try again or directly to wil [numeral four] ds [at] that google mail service.
My interest is not in comparing myself to the Joneses, it's more about - could I live a better, easier life, spend more time with kids, have less stress, etc, by just taking on a bit more debt (say, for a new minivan or something?)
That's fine, and I agree that debt can be used as an effective tool if you use it wisely. Also, unsustainable spending doesn't specifically have to be about appearances or competition. That just seems to be a common thread - people wanting to appear wealthy despite their actual financial state.
Javelin said:Steve_Jones said:Another one of these threads, wonder if it'll be any different from the last 100 just like it?
As far as College goes, there are plenty of cheap ways to get a degree, I've never seen a regular job posting that says "Must have degree from X school", it's usually a have a degree Y/N option.
There are millions of jobs that are MUST have degree, mine included. That said, there is a range of majors that work (usually with some extra coursework if it's not the exact match degree) and while they do not specify which school or type of school, they do specify that it has to be accredited by a certain accreditation.
I know there are plenty of jobs that need a degree, however I have never seen any that say "must have degree from University of X" or " No public University degrees need apply". There are expensive ways to go to College, and less expensive ways to go to College, both ways end up with a degree. Just like everything in life, if you choose the more expensive option, that's on you.
I realized I never directly addressed the title of this thread:
We prefer to (and have actively planned so we can) leave money to our daughters, while maintaining a reasonably comfortable lifestyle for ourselves.
If absolutely necessary, we will spend everything we have, but if that is necessary, we will do it living as frugally as possible.
I would consider myself a failure if I passed on open debt to my children.
Debt is a tool. Too bad schools and parents don't teach people to use it wisely. Running up $100k in school debt to be a teacher or a history major is not a wise use of debt. $100k cars on a $75k income is not a wise use of debt. $30k on Master Card and Visa for lattes and clothes is not a wise use of debt. Rolling $10k from your previous car loan into your new car loan is a bad use of debt. While home loans and car loans are not necessarily bad things, they can be. If you are spending 50% of your income on a house payment, you bought too much house. If you are spending 25% of your income on a car payment, you bought too much car.
I have basically zero personal debt at the moment. The house is paid for. I don't do car loans or furniture loans or most kinds of loans. I didn't go to college so no school loans either. I'm fine with that. I live in a decent if cheap house in a decent if cheap neighborhood that I bought at the bottom of the market in 2009. I drive decent but older cars. While I could well afford to drop $500k on a house or drive new cars, I choose to live well below my income. Not having $2500 house payments and $500 car payments opens up all kinds of opportunities. Like buying my business partner out and paying cash which I did the first of the year. I'm a firm believer that the borrower is a slave to the lender when it comes to personal debt. If the economy crashes tomorrow and my business drops by 50%, I'll still be able to keep food on the table and a roof over our heads.
As a business owner, I carry anywhere from $25k to $75k in business debt even though I keep that much or more cash in the bank. Most of that is 30-day accounts and it fluctuates a good bit. I also have a business line of credit. Using other people's money wisely allows me to do more with less. It allows me to keep cash on hand to be able to rapidly respond to changes and opportunities instead of missing out on them. Keeping the amounts low lets me sleep at night.
There is good( great) debt and Bad Debt.
Good debt is something that will make you money, give you a tax reduction, control a major appreciating asset with a modest partial investment, save you money in your senior years, and give you shelter.
Bad debt is anything else.
I bought my first home GI bill nothing down. For $27,800. My home today has gained over $35,000 a year since I bought it. Plus saved me at least that in taxes per year.
My advice? Buy early, buy the worst house in the best neighborhood you can afford.
The house depreciates. The land appreciates.
NOHOME said:When investing in equities, remember that the entire retail industry refused fiduciary duty to their clients and said it out loud; that means you work for them, they don't work for you. You can spin it all you want, but the net result is that the equities market is a Casino and the house is the only one allowed to win.
Also remember that retail financial advisors are not the equities market. I agree with you that financial advisors are for the most part a parasite to be avoided, but investing is an incredible opportunity that the average American has to set themselves up for financial security later in life. It is not gambling.
In reply to dculberson :
In a very real sense it is gamboling. Not only if you should select a financial advisor. But is he the right fit for you if you do select one.
Extremely few advisors beat the index funds for 5 straight years.
I'm thinking of sending my kids to Europe for college. Look at the costs. 300euro to 500 euro a semester in Germany. Sure you gotta pay room and board but geez those costs are tiny.
Steve_Jones said:Javelin said:Steve_Jones said:Another one of these threads, wonder if it'll be any different from the last 100 just like it?
As far as College goes, there are plenty of cheap ways to get a degree, I've never seen a regular job posting that says "Must have degree from X school", it's usually a have a degree Y/N option.
There are millions of jobs that are MUST have degree, mine included. That said, there is a range of majors that work (usually with some extra coursework if it's not the exact match degree) and while they do not specify which school or type of school, they do specify that it has to be accredited by a certain accreditation.
I know there are plenty of jobs that need a degree, however I have never seen any that say "must have degree from University of X" or " No public University degrees need apply". There are expensive ways to go to College, and less expensive ways to go to College, both ways end up with a degree. Just like everything in life, if you choose the more expensive option, that's on you.
The problem is even the cheap ways are too expensive imo.
Toyman! said:I don't do car loans or furniture loans or most kinds of loans.
I will occasionally do furniture loans when new larger furniture items are needed just cause you can often get 0% interest rates.
frenchyd said:In reply to dculberson :
In a very real sense it is gamboling. Not only if you should select a financial advisor. But is he the right fit for you if you do select one.
Extremely few advisors beat the index funds for 5 straight years.
I am not talking about financial advisors when I say investing. I'm talking about index funds, no advisors.
Gamboling is almost always a good thing.
Years ago I got certified to teach a Debt-Elimination Program, similar to Dave Ramsey stuff. Did that for 15 years. Still struggled to follow the program. But we persevered. Then when my parents passed in 2019 and I received an inheritance, we just followed the financial roadmap we had in place for years. House got paid off first. Then the rental house got paid off. Then both properties got caught up on delayed maintenance. Only debt is what we charge on our rewards card each month and it gets paid off every month.
Funny thing is my credit score dropped after paying off the mortgages. Who cares! It still hovers around 800.
Best thing is the relief from stress! Life is sooo much better now!
Now I'm focusing on cash flow for retirement. I wish I could get another rental property, but good grief house prices are outrageous. Don't really care about mortgage rates as long as the investment offers a positive cash flow. Just can't get the numbers too work right now, so we wait!
Now my stock market investments.
You don't lose if you don't sell!
We have 2 daughters and would love to get them into their own properties in a few years.
In reply to trucke :
Trucke, don't be afraid to look outside the US too. I'm on a very similar journey.
I've been blessed in my life in many ways but I've also worked my butt off for many things. One of the things I did early is, like you, bought real estate. I have 3 places now all paid off and looking for the next one to invest my rent proceeds from with the idea of every 5-7 years have a place paid off and buy the next one. Now before you say richy rich, All three places are worth maybe $500K total so we are not talking big dollar places but the yields are right for them.
My thing is I now have to be riskier to achieve that goal. My last property I bought was in Poland that I Airbnb and the one before that was in Costa Rica. I'm looking now for another place in the US but will be waiting at least a year as the yield rates are way out of whack right now.
Oh well, I have probably another 15-20 years of work left and then a decision on where I'm going to retire to. I don't think that answer will be the US.
College Debt is actually easier to avoid then people think, because there is millions of dollars in scholarship money and Grants. Even some private schools you can walk away debt free. Last year I worked with several students who paid nothing, some of whom took no loans and received a refund check because of the Covid Relief fund.
Children on the other hand are extremely expensive, and there is no cheap easy to medical/dental, clothing and feeding them. Atleast with College debt once it's paid off it doesn't come back with it's hand out looking for a place to stay. 
Since I am the only frugal one in the household being marry is also extremely expansive 
My 80 year old grandmother bought a house in 2014. The bank gave her a thirty year loan.
I found it refreshingly optimistic.
In reply to Folgers :
Optimistic or opportunistic? They are either going to get paid or get an appreciating asset.
I should have given more information. Lol.
Grandma is one of the cheapest people I’ve ever encountered. The asking price was 55k she insisted that the realtor write an offer for 50k. They didn’t accept her offer.
Two months later the realtor calls her and asked if she would still like the home for 50k. She said no. Now she said she would pay 48k.
There is way more to the story, but she put twenty thousand down and financed the rest for thirty years.
Shes stubborn as a mule, and may live that long just out of spite.
Toyman! said:I'm a firm believer that the borrower is a slave to the lender
this
In reply to trucke :
Yeah... it amused me how after I paid off my last car loan about a year ago, my credit rating dropped by about 40 points.
From what I've read, debt can be claimed against your estate assets, but cannot be passed on to your heirs unless they cosigned.
trigun7469 said:College Debt is actually easier to avoid then people think, because there is millions of dollars in scholarship money and Grants. Even some private schools you can walk away debt free. Last year I worked with several students who paid nothing, some of whom took no loans and received a refund check because of the Covid Relief fund.
Children on the other hand are extremely expensive, and there is no cheap easy to medical/dental, clothing and feeding them. Atleast with College debt once it's paid off it doesn't come back with it's hand out looking for a place to stay.
Am I the only one who knows about the military?
They pay you to go to college when you've finished your service. You can also get free college courses and earn credits while in the service.
Only 2% of those who serve actually go into combat. Most of the rest do various military jobs such as supply, logistics, technical tasks. Accounting, records keeping, repair, etc.
The Navy wants intelligent people to teach them all sorts of technical stuff. Things that will get you a really decent paycheck once you are out. The Morning after you arrive at the training center you are tested all day to see what you know, and more important what you didn't know you are inclined to be good at. It's really an IQ test combined with aptitude.
The Navy doesn't want to shove people into jobs. They really try to get you doing something you find interesting. Plus some of the neatest classes like Fire Fighting instructor training. Yes it was scary at first but learning how to put out a wildly burning fire is a really great feeling. Ho, hum- I'm surrounded on all sides by 30 feet of flames. Oh well, guess I'll put it out and teach these panicked kids how to do it for me. I'm 5'9" tall and had a hold of 6'5" 250 pound terrified guy who wants to drop the hose and run. Now that is fun!
Or Rockets and bombs training. Dive bombers can dive at up to 90 degrees from the ground but a Stoof can't go more than 70 degrees before it goes into a wing stall so you're trying to go 65 degrees and put the pipper on the target. Hint; a couple of tries and anything you ate for breakfast ( or didn't eat) is not going to want to stay down. So toss your cookies in the barf bag and get on with it.
The Coast Guard has a similar approach but a lot less ways of using it.
I've met some really smart people from the Air Force. But they are patterned after the Army so I can't speak to how their training is.
I have heard horror tails about the army and the way they treat you. If true I'm glad I dodged the draft by joining the Navy.
Marines. Their training method is to tear you down and instill respect and pride where a lot of garbage is now. They say there is no such thing as a former Marine. Once a Marine always a Marine.
In the Navy you get the best food you'll ever eat. Cooks are promoted on how good they are, and they really try to feed you well.
I've had steak and Lobster about once a month. Steak about once a week and it's always cooked to my preference.
There is a massive variety of food on any given day. 15-20 different kinds of breakfasts 10 or so different things for lunch. And Dinner. Yeh it's great!!
Mid rats in case you are up at night.
On board ship it's nice to have a comfortable place to sleep and it's not all work or sleep. Places to go like library, theater, gym, and my favorite just sitting on the fan tail.
You'll work hard and train hard but you also get a chance to see the world. Hawaii (4), Guam, Japan ( 3 different ports) Hong Kong, (2) Singapore (2), Malaysia, Australia. New Zealand, Spain and France. Plus at least 20 different states. Not too many places in the world the Navy doesn't go to.
I loved San Diego and New Orleans during Marci Gras. Pensacola Florida And Corpus Christi Texas. I especially enjoyed Whidby Island Washington. And had fun in San Francisco.
The pay is decent. Better than you'll do in civilian life at that age once you cover Food, clothing, shelter, medical, dental, and eyeglasses ( if needed). I went in with a mouthful of cavities and came out with solid gold fillings.
You get 30 days paid vacation a year. You can take all 30 days once you complete basic training or split it anyway you want. If like me you're having too much fun,- when you get out you'll be paid for any vacation left on the books.
Once out you can buy a house with nothing down.(GI bill ) Plus companies love to hire former Military. If you have a critical skill the private sector will be very aggressive trying to hire you. Offering really serious paycheck's sometimes even bonuses. .
There are discounts available at some companies if you have the Form DD214 In addition Government jobs you are ahead of most civilians
If you do 19 yrs 6 months you get 1/2 of you last military paycheck every month ( adjusted for inflation. And 30 years you get 3/4's of your last military paycheck for the rest of your life
Yes you can double dip and earn another retirement from federal, state, local government, it's even possible to triple dip and earn 3 retirements& a social security check.
If you're making less than $48,000 a year you get free medical, dental, eyeglasses. From the VA ( most people think it's better than civilians get ) Plus at your passing. The VA will take care of you and your wife. Including the 7 gun salute and taps.
In reply to frenchyd :
Damn your mostly 70s era military knowledge. How relevant. The military is not as competitive vs civ world as it used to be, especially for enlisted. I would rather my kids take a stab at college and debt first.
93EXCivic said:Steve_Jones said:Javelin said:Steve_Jones said:Another one of these threads, wonder if it'll be any different from the last 100 just like it?
As far as College goes, there are plenty of cheap ways to get a degree, I've never seen a regular job posting that says "Must have degree from X school", it's usually a have a degree Y/N option.
There are millions of jobs that are MUST have degree, mine included. That said, there is a range of majors that work (usually with some extra coursework if it's not the exact match degree) and while they do not specify which school or type of school, they do specify that it has to be accredited by a certain accreditation.
I know there are plenty of jobs that need a degree, however I have never seen any that say "must have degree from University of X" or " No public University degrees need apply". There are expensive ways to go to College, and less expensive ways to go to College, both ways end up with a degree. Just like everything in life, if you choose the more expensive option, that's on you.
The problem is even the cheap ways are too expensive imo.
Then go to trade school, start a business, etc. There are plenty of ways to make money without College.
Steve_Jones said:93EXCivic said:Steve_Jones said:Javelin said:Steve_Jones said:Another one of these threads, wonder if it'll be any different from the last 100 just like it?
As far as College goes, there are plenty of cheap ways to get a degree, I've never seen a regular job posting that says "Must have degree from X school", it's usually a have a degree Y/N option.
There are millions of jobs that are MUST have degree, mine included. That said, there is a range of majors that work (usually with some extra coursework if it's not the exact match degree) and while they do not specify which school or type of school, they do specify that it has to be accredited by a certain accreditation.
I know there are plenty of jobs that need a degree, however I have never seen any that say "must have degree from University of X" or " No public University degrees need apply". There are expensive ways to go to College, and less expensive ways to go to College, both ways end up with a degree. Just like everything in life, if you choose the more expensive option, that's on you.
The problem is even the cheap ways are too expensive imo.
Then go to trade school, start a business, etc. There are plenty of ways to make money without College.
This needs to be reiterated over and over.
You really don't have to play by their rules. 36 years ago I dropped out of HS, got married, and got a job digging ditches. Now I work for myself and make a pretty comfortable living. The total outlay for schooling was $0 beyond the cost to get my GED. School opens many doors, but the lack of it doesn't close all of them.
My brother's company is desperate for linemen. Starting pay is $36/hr and tops out at $60+. Foremen make $75. There is money to be made. You just have to get out of the rut and go find it.
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