Taking Debt to Your Grave Now Acceptable?

Karacticus said:

Depending on how much course work you can knock out at the CC level, you might even be able to get into a co-op/summer intern program and get your future employer to pick up a significant portion of the remaining cost

I honestly think this path should be encouraged significantly more.  I have been fishing around to try and hire co-ops for a while and where work it is difficult.

In college I did a true co-op program and it was extremely beneficial to both me and my employer.  My school certainly had its issues, but I would like to see that aspect of it repeated across a huge range of degrees and institutions.

In comparison an intern program is a complete joke... on both sides.

Mary Barra - CEO of Generous Motors graduated from GMI, now Kettering University (?)

Get your engineering degree. Work GM then go to school alternating periods.   In five years you get a degree and experience and pay and probably a job at GM?  Always thought that was a good plan.  
 

Datsun310Guy said:

Mary Barra - CEO of Generous Motors graduated from GMI, now Kettering University (?)

Get your engineering degree. Work GM then go to school alternating periods.   In five years you get a degree and experience and pay and probably a job at GM?  Always thought that was a good plan.  

That's where I went as well.  There is actually a small collection of alumni on this board.  Its weird.

The GM-related stuff is not really applicable anymore.  You can co-op with any employer.

In reply to pheller :

The entire economy is debt based.  Where does the money come from to buy a house or car, or go to college in most cases?  

Beer Baron said:

infinitenexus said:

So, like many others, I joined the army. Personally, I think that's quite awful--no one should have to potentially risk their life just to get a better education.

Even if it doesn't cost your life, it seems to frequently take a very high cost on your health. It seems like the overwhelming majority of veterans I know have significant hearing damage, and a high proportion have some sort of minor (or not so minor) neurological damage.

Hearing loss in both ears and tinnitus in left ear
Degenerative arthritis and bone spurs in lower back
Multiple dislocations of left shoulder (I'm at 6, 4 of which were army-related)
Arthritis in neck
Arthritis in left wrist
Arthritis in both knees
Torn muscle in lower back
Nerve damage, causing numbness in right foot
Torn meniscus in right knee
That's by age 34, and that's all just from training. I'm one of the lucky ones. I have a 70% disability rating. Personally, considering that I'm miserable and in pain every day and know that I'll probably be crippled in the future, I feel I deserve more, but shortchanging veterans is pretty much par for the course in America. We have the money for war, but not enough to take care of people afterwards.

Also, that "only 2% sees combat" statistic was likely from 30 years ago. A 2019 study found that overall, 10% of the military sees combat. Now that's military as a whole--the army and marines are going to have a much higher percentage than the air force and navy, as it's their jobs to fight on the ground. Also not included in this statistic are things such as IEDs. If you get blown up on the road, that's not considered combat. Then, add in the mental toll that being in the military can take on your health. An average of 20 veterans commit suicide each day. I know I've got my own issues from the incredibly toxic environment I spent 12 years in. I never want my son to be in the military, especially not the Army. 

Also, I can't stand it when people take the attitude that "things are so soft these days, I went through hell and now things are easier and they're whining and blah blah blah" and that's when talking about student loan forgiveness, the military, career, anything. Why do you want future generations to suffer, just because you did? Shouldn't we want better for our children? 
 

Also, I seem to say "also" far too much.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to pheller :

The entire economy is debt based.  Where does the money come from to buy a house or car, or go to college in most cases?  

This is the most "On Point" statement in this thread. For the last 30 years the economy has adopted the business model of a bar where all the patrons are alcoholics and drinks are free. There will be no hangover as long as you keep drinking.

infinitenexus said:

Also, I seem to say "also" far too much.

I also do this.

Heck, my brother had a relatively cushy gig - graduated USNA and was a Flight Officer in the back of F-18's, who served his minimum required service. He has no major issues like you do, but I can still see the toll it took on him. He's 6 years younger than me, but looks older than I do, his hearing is worse than mine (which is minorly damaged from loud toys), and he makes more dad noises bending down and standing up than I do. And brewing is very physically demanding and I've done it longer than he was in the military. It's taken less of a toll than him being a Navy officer.

But for him, it was a good choice. He joined because he always wanted to be a Navy pilot. He didn't join the military because that was the only way for him to get an education. He certainly leveraged his service into a good job afterwards, but he also was super fortunate and provided with opportunities that a poor kid enlisting for the GI bill would *not* get.

I don't mean to be blunt, but if your degree is worthless, that's on you.  Study what you're interested in, of course, but it needs to be either directly employable or able to be applied employably.

There is a sliding scale between everyone studying underwater basketweaving for free tuition, and everyone being assigned a career and issued a color-coded jumpsuit to match.

There is a lot of room for individual latitude between those two extremes, as there should be.  Most people pick fairly reasonable choices, but if you're one who didn't, you need to parlay that degree into something else.  It's not your advisor's fault and it's not your lender's fault.

Do you really want your lender telling you that you can't study field X, because they don't think you'll pay them back?  Do you want your bank deciding your education for you because they will only lend money for careers they approve?

Duke said:

Do you really want your lender telling you that you can't study field X, because they don't think you'll pay them back?  Do you want your bank deciding your education for you because they will only lend money for careers they approve?

To some extent, yes.

Putting myself in the lender's shoes.  If the median salary for the first 5 years post-graduation of someone with an underwater basketweaving degree is $24k, it would be foolish of me to lend a student money beyond a certain threshold.  Can they carry $5k in debt?  sure.  $25k?  Ehhh maybe.  $100k -its unlikely that will ever be repayed.

No different than a bank approving you for a mortgage or car loan based on your ability to repay.

I agree that if your degree is worthless, that's on you.  That said, I think 18 year olds are not really mature enough to be making those decisions, especially with the education they have been given.  Id like to see more guidance given in this area.  Another area where I think making a co-op type program the norm would be helpful.

I'm 100% against student loan forgiveness.  You went to school, you agreed to the loans, you chose your course of study.  Nobody forced you to go to school, made you major in ancient sanskrit (or the like) and take out the loans.  You did.  You pay.  If you're still paying off your loans out of your social security, well, that shows stunningly bad decision making for your entire life and why should the rest of us bail you out?

I had a history degree and had to go back to school for premed.  I paid.  I went to dental school and had to take out loans.  I made moves because of those loans and ended up paying a huge amount of them and the military paid off the rest.

As far as military and health, that's highly dependent on service and job.  Obviously I experienced none of that as I'm firmly in the rear with the gear, although I could've been sent to a base that got mortared regularly, got lucky.  Nothing against the Army but I'd never join that service or the Marines, Air Force or Coast Guard for me, which is what I did...

In reply to ProDarwin :

The biggest issue is the two groups encouraging them to sign the dotted line are the exact same groups that are making bank off the loans. 

The schools themselves, and the banks.  As a society, we encourage children to trust their teachers and debt is a good thing. Then we throw them to the wolves and are amazed when they get eaten whole. 

A kid who has been through a school system that teaches them little beyond passing a test has to make a real-world decision that will affect them for 20+ years. They don't stand a chance. 

I know exactly how useless the school system is. My kids received an extensive education in the fact that the world doesn't care about them or owe them anything and if they can't pay for it they shouldn't buy it. 

While we all like to use underwater basketweaving as the ideal useless degree, there's a lot of pretty reasonable-sounding degrees that don't always have good job prospects. According to this page, degrees in Computer Science, Criminal Justice, and Education can lead to a tough job hunt:

link

Conversely speaking, one of my high school friends got his degree in religion and wound up being a lawyer for the state department.

I have an associate's degree in computer programming, and if there's one thing I've learned in life applying for hundreds of jobs, it's that no one cares about an associate's degree. If a job requires college, it's almost always a bachelor's degree. Looking back, instead of that two years of college I would have been MUCH better off getting A+ and Net+ certifications and using those to get an entry-level IT job and some experience. So the entire notion of a useless college degree isn't so cut and dry.

Also, call me crazy, but I want people to get degrees in music and art and film, and I want those people to produce all the music and art and films they can, because I enjoy consuming music and art and film. Life would be pretty boring without the arts. 

Toyman! said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

As a society, we encourage children to trust their teachers and debt is a good thing. Then we throw them to the wolves and are amazed when they get eaten whole. 

A kid who has been through a school system that teaches them little beyond passing a test has to make a real-world decision that will affect them for 20+ years. They don't stand a chance. 

This is an excellent point. In high school, I learned how to balance a checkbook. I never learned about interest rates and loans, no one ever taught me what a 401K was or compounding interest. The notion of a student loan was normalized, not cautioned. We were taught that we would be worthless without a college degree and would never get a decent job. If you have to get a loan to go to college, that's fine, because with a college degree of course you'll get a great job and pay it off in no time!

And now we have millions of people suffering for it. 

Toyman! said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

The biggest issue is the two groups encouraging them to sign the dotted line are the exact same groups that are making bank off the loans.

The bank isn't making any "bank" if the loan gets defaulted.

@ProDarwin:

Agreed, the bank shouldn't be making bad loans, and should use due diligence in deciding how much to lend any individual.  I was talking about a more activist approach, as in, "We'll lend up to $10k for a Liberal Arts degree, up to $20k for a nursing degree, and up to $30k for a business degree."

Datsun310Guy said:

Mary Barra - CEO of Generous Motors graduated from GMI, now Kettering University (?)

Get your engineering degree. Work GM then go to school alternating periods.   In five years you get a degree and experience and pay and probably a job at GM?  Always thought that was a good plan.  
 

This was me. Indeed it's now Kettering University and your co-op need not be at GM. I saved enough working through my co-op terms to cover about 1/3 of the costs for the upcoming semester. It's a great school and the co-op experience really helped a few times on the resume.

infinitenexus said:

Also, call me crazy, but I want people to get degrees in music and art and film, and I want those people to produce all the music and art and films they can, because I enjoy consuming music and art and film. Life would be pretty boring without the arts. 

Exactly. Degrees in the creative fields especially are frowned upon as "useless" by many people, but those people also enjoy consuming content created by people who got those degrees. Granted, not everyone who goes to film school is going to end up winning an Oscar, but it's going to be damn hard to make a movie if you never learn how.

And to preempt the argument that people should only go for those degrees if they have a fallback: Do you really want to consume only media created by privileged people? Do you think the insights of people who grew up poor and underprivileged should be entirely absent from popular culture? People taking risks to pursue fields they are passionate about are how we end up with some of our most compelling cultural touchstones.

Heck, GRM was founded by two people who went to a private college that was probably not the most sensible or utilitarian choice, but led to this forum existing.

In reply to infinitenexus :

I agree with what you have there. It isn't cut and dry, I also want a well rounded society. I don't want to pay for someones art or film degree, or their PhD, or the MD or JD, or Engineering Degree. We all signed up for our college loans (or didn't). Own it pay it move on. Does it suck for people that are saddled with 6 figure debt, yes. You shouldn't take it back though, there are consequences to actions. We let the same 18 yo sign up for the military and we can't give them back what they lost. I paid off my college loans, I paid them off when I was struggling and didn't have E36 M3. Does the government pay me back for my college loans that I paid? How about my friends that didn't go to college, do they just get a check and a thank you for going to work out of high school? The whole thing is messy. I am for holding interest on the loans or extending terms but forgiveness seems like giving a whole gang of people the shaft (like the people that decided they couldn't go to college because they couldn't afford it).

In reply to infinitenexus :

There's nothing crazy about education in the arts.  I am absolutely, unswervingly, 100% in favor of the arts.  I draw.  I paint.  I do a lot of crafts.  If that's what you want to do, I am all in favor of it.  It's not the easiest way to make money but making money is not always the primary goal.

I have zero issue with choosing a career that's hard to make money in.

I have a lot of issue with choosing a career that's hard to make money in, going into heavy debt to do it, and then whining that you can't make enough money to cover your debt.

Other developed nations heavily subsidize their higher education because they recognize it to be a public good that benefits society as a whole. A case of a nation recognizing "good debt" as investments that pay dividends.

In Germany, degree programs are frequently no cost, or equivalent cost to a community college in the U.S., but for the equivalent of a fully certified degree at a State university. They also have arguably *the* best trades education programs in the world, so those two paths are far from mutually exclusive.

Scotland also has free college education. France is a couple hundred euros/year for EU residents and up to $4k/year for international students. The UK *caps* per-year tuition at ~$13k/yr.

Sometimes those "useless" degrees turn out to be invaluable. My personal path has been very well served by having a BA in English and a formal Brewmaster certification. My liberal arts education has been invaluable taking on higher-level management and leadership roles at a company - having the technical ability to make stuff, and the artistic understanding of conveying a concise message to a target audience.

As wealthy as the U.S. is, there's no reason we couldn't subsidize secondary education in the way the France does.

In reply to NY Nick :

So, I agree with your first two sentences, but after that I respectfully disagree. I don't think it's giving anyone the shaft. As I said in an earlier post, just because one person suffers doesn't mean others should. Just because you struggled and fought and paid yours off doesn't mean everyone should have to struggle to pay off their student loan, especially when these loans are often predatory 15% interest scams given to kids that weren't taught any better. We should want better things for the future, for our children, and for others. Also, economists and even the secretary of treasury have said that student loan forgiveness would be good for the economy. In this link, 9/10 economists surveyed said a progressive approach of loan forgiveness (pay it off for low income people, basically) would be the best path:

link

What people need to understand is that we should encourage people to go to college, and we should make it affordable and easy. Everyone. An educated society is a very, very good thing! A better-educated society is going to research things better, be more skeptical, vote better, raise their kids better, and become better leaders. It's going to benefit the entire nation. I'm totally fine with paying for that. 

infinitenexus said:

Beer Baron said:

infinitenexus said:

So, like many others, I joined the army. Personally, I think that's quite awful--no one should have to potentially risk their life just to get a better education.

Even if it doesn't cost your life, it seems to frequently take a very high cost on your health. It seems like the overwhelming majority of veterans I know have significant hearing damage, and a high proportion have some sort of minor (or not so minor) neurological damage.

Hearing loss in both ears and tinnitus in left ear
Degenerative arthritis and bone spurs in lower back
Multiple dislocations of left shoulder (I'm at 6, 4 of which were army-related)
Arthritis in neck
Arthritis in left wrist
Arthritis in both knees
Torn muscle in lower back
Nerve damage, causing numbness in right foot
Torn meniscus in right knee
That's by age 34, and that's all just from training. I'm one of the lucky ones. I have a 70% disability rating. Personally, considering that I'm miserable and in pain every day and know that I'll probably be crippled in the future, I feel I deserve more, but shortchanging veterans is pretty much par for the course in America. We have the money for war, but not enough to take care of people afterwards.

Also, that "only 2% sees combat" statistic was likely from 30 years ago. A 2019 study found that overall, 10% of the military sees combat. Now that's military as a whole--the army and marines are going to have a much higher percentage than the air force and navy, as it's their jobs to fight on the ground. Also not included in this statistic are things such as IEDs. If you get blown up on the road, that's not considered combat. Then, add in the mental toll that being in the military can take on your health. An average of 20 veterans commit suicide each day. I know I've got my own issues from the incredibly toxic environment I spent 12 years in. I never want my son to be in the military, especially not the Army. 

Also, I can't stand it when people take the attitude that "things are so soft these days, I went through hell and now things are easier and they're whining and blah blah blah" and that's when talking about student loan forgiveness, the military, career, anything. Why do you want future generations to suffer, just because you did? Shouldn't we want better for our children? 
 

I'm sorry to hear about all your troubles. Hopefully things are getting better. My wife's father couldn't say enough good things about how the VA treated him. ( Korea ) Plus I've heard others say the same. Perhaps here in Minnesota is the exception rather than the rule? 
    I'll agree that some are injured in training. A few may die.  You are right it's not all combat.  
      More are injured in off base incidents.  Surfing may look like fun but brutal mistakes happen and some even die.  Mountain climbing and well  there are plenty of ways to get injured  in San Diego.    It's just younger guys do tend to do foolish things.  Drinking and driving,  I'm sure has its share of incidents. Etc   The worst I was injured in the Military was as a passenger in an auto accident.  But I also had my appendix rupture in the military and while I was saved by the Mayo Clinic   The Navy paid the bill.  
     I don't know what is considered combat duty for the Army  but in the Navy during Vietnam out of the  combat group of 5000 less than 100 of us earned hostel fire pay.  Attack  carrier groups even fewer since most planes have 1 or 2. 
    Unless you actually fly in country and experience  combat  the CO may not get it.  
Then  between wars no one sees combat.   
    While the training is rough and people are lost just in training, I'll stand by my 2% number and grant you  that recently during Iraq and Afghanistan  the Army and Marines might see that 10% you spoke of.  

In reply to Duke :

I think the issue is that a lot of these kids weren't taught much about student loans. Like me when I was young, they didn't know anything about predatory loans and high interest rates. They were taught they had to go to college, and if they did they would get a good job. After doing what they were told was the right thing, they found themselves in a world of poop. I have several friends that wound up in this situation. It's hard to blame them when no one taught them any better.

In reply to infinitenexus :

Look. At what it cost to go to college for a year in Germany?   Plus all the training available for trades, skills and crafts where you actually get a paycheck.  
     America has to get over the idea that everything is a profit center and the only thing that is important is this quarters statement. 
      Working people aren't a cost!   They are an asset,  an appreciating asset  that over time increase the value of the company.   Take care of your employees and the bottom line will take care of itself. 

Beer Baron said:

Other developed nations heavily subsidize their higher education because they recognize it to be a public good that benefits society as a whole. A case of a nation recognizing "good debt" as investments that pay dividends.

In Germany, degree programs are frequently no cost, or equivalent cost to a community college in the U.S., but for the equivalent of a fully certified degree at a State university. They also have arguably *the* best trades education programs in the world, so those two paths are far from mutually exclusive.

Scotland also has free college education. France is a couple hundred euros/year for EU residents and up to $4k/year for international students. The UK *caps* per-year tuition at ~$13k/yr.

Sometimes those "useless" degrees turn out to be invaluable. My personal path has been very well served by having a BA in English and a formal Brewmaster certification. My liberal arts education has been invaluable taking on higher-level management and leadership roles at a company - having the technical ability to make stuff, and the artistic understanding of conveying a concise message to a target audience.

As wealthy as the U.S. is, there's no reason we couldn't subsidize secondary education in the way the France does.

I was thinking of posting this as well, but I know some people froth at the mouth at the mention of subsidizing anything.

Germany has an incredibly good education system, and its public universities are completely tuition-free. Last I checked it was only the private universities that cost money. It's a fantastic system, and if you ask a German person about it and why their universities are free, they tend to look at you like you're an idiot and reply with "Why aren't yours free?"

It all goes back to an educated society being a good thing.