bravenrace wrote:

Beer Baron wrote: Hiding or being forward about it shouldn't factor into being trans. The goal of most trans people is to pass as well as possible. They generally don't come out that they were once a different gender than they present as. It's not deceptive, it's who they are. Most don't usually come out to the world. Please keep in mind, we have at least one member on this board who is MtoF trans. I have multiple friends who are trans (both MtoF and FtoM). This person has been a valuable, contributing member of the community, although I don't believe she has posted for a while.

Nobody said the he hid it, or that the fact that he didn't was right or wrong. I said that she hid the fact that she was faking being black, and in a professional position where it mattered. That's the difference. That's why she is getting in trouble for it and he didn't. You completely misunderstood what I said.

I am setting aside what miss whitefro did (I forget her name), and am just focusing on Jenner and trans people for a moment.

People are saying that Jenner is being lauded because she was forward about her transition, that what makes her good and honest is that she wasn't trying to "hide" her transition. Trans folks do not need to be public about having transitioned. It is not dishonest if they do not telegraph that they used to present as a different gender.

What Jenner is doing that is (potentially) good, is being open enough to help make being trans more normalized.

This is 100% separate from miss whitefro.

freakshow

captdownshift wrote: In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker: I want you to lay my eggs, you venomously spurred mammal.

Well, that was awkward

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

etifosi wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I feel I am a cartoon anthropomorphic animal trapped in a man's body.

Most people forget that the Giant Purple Snorklewacker lives in the closet. An actual closet.

Well, really, it was the a hand-drawn closet of a cartoon boy.

Penguin, a cartoon penguin.

A cartoon anthropomorphic animal trapped inside a penguins closet, trapped in a man's body.

On a big motorcycle.

Beer Baron wrote: I am Nigerian Royalty...

You too? Good-Oh my Brother!

In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:

it only is the first time :pats head:

There's a lot of dishonesty in the world.

I'm a pretty good chameleon myself. I put on a pretty strong Southern accent when I'm at work. It disappears entirely at home. I speak very good Ebonics when I am around some people, and have a fabulous Dominican accent when I speak Spanish. I swear more when I'm around some of you.

Why? I don't know. Maybe to fit in.

My wife is a New Yorker Hispanic who uses words like "Yall" and "Hey" instead of Hi! Why? Same reason.

I'm pretty convinced most people try to fit in when they can.

Guess it's just about me being dishonest. So be it.

Jenner is 67. Spent a lot of year's hiding something before he became so "honest".

In reply to SVreX:

Why do you need to fit in, isn't the whole trans-whatever thing about being true to your inner self?

Trans_Maro wrote: In reply to SVreX: Why do you need to fit in, isn't the whole trans-whatever thing about being true to your inner self?

I don't think so, it's about making headlines and shock factor.

Otherwise there would be a woman living somewhere that looked remarkably like Jenner, but no one would be sure.

SVreX wrote: There's a lot of dishonesty in the world. I'm a pretty good chameleon myself. I put on a pretty strong Southern accent when I'm at work. It disappears entirely at home. I speak very good Ebonics when I am around some people, and have a fabulous Dominican accent when I speak Spanish. I swear more when I'm around some of you. Why? I don't know. Maybe to fit in. My wife is a New Yorker Hispanic who uses words like "Yall" and "Hey" instead of Hi! Why? Same reason. I'm pretty convinced most people try to fit in when they can. Guess it's just about me being dishonest. So be it. Jenner is 67. Spent a lot of year's hiding something before he became so "honest".

You pretty much described me except that my Spanish accent is Puerto Rican! Still good enough that 40 years after leaving the Island the Dominicans still pick me off as PR. (Actually born in Arizona to SD parents)

I have always valued invisibility and never understood people who get off the boat and 30 years later sound like they just got here.

I don't consider it dishonest, I consider it a survival skill. PC bullE36 M3 aside, (by the way, PC seems to be strictly a north American white man thing) the world at large is not accepting of "Different"

In reply to SVreX:

I'm pretty sure everybody inadvertently, nearly subconsciously and instinctively, alters their speech patterns/accent/mannerisms/general behavior to better fit into certain situations. There have probably been studies done on it. Try to purposely speak like a suburban white dude in an inner city environment for instance, rather than automatically throwing some ebonics and general southern spin on things, you'll draw a lot more attention to yourself, good, bad, and indifferent. As NOHOME noted, it's a survival skill.

You know, I don't care if Jenner wants to be a man or a woman, or if the other girl wants to be black or white. I really couldn't care less what someone wants to do as long as it does not affect others.

What the girl has done however is lie about it to the point where she has been affecting others, such as telling people about how she was assaulted by someone for being black when she wasn't, and using race to get ahead by lying also. There is a big difference between what they've done in that manner.

What I do hate however is the news people going crazy over this stuff. Please...we have so much more pressing things going on in the world, can we talk about those instead?

In reply to racerdave600:

The pressing issues can't be bothered with.

NOHOME wrote: I don't consider it dishonest, I consider it a survival skill. PC bullE36 M3 aside, (by the way, PC seems to be strictly a north American white man thing) the world at large is not accepting of "Different"

i have an aunt who used to be my uncle. it was more of a "this is who i really think i am" thing than an "i've been duping you into thinking i've been that manly bowler/golfer/drinker the last 58 years" thing. with the reactions (such as the one line "freakshow" reply above) to the transition, i completely understand people trying to hide things not to be deceptive, but out of fear. people in general are intolerant of that which is different, also out of fear. people fear change, people fear stuff that isn't like them. out of that fear comes hate, which was the reaction of my aunt's oldest brother. but you know what, it's still the same person on the inside that i've known my whole life, she just has long hair, boobs, and dresses like a woman now. I'm not sure jenner is a hero, but certainly a person of that stature coming out and saying "here you go, this is who i see when i look in the mirror" makes it easier for other people living with that same inner conflict to be open with themselves. it was strange for me, knowing someone as my uncle for 33 years and now trying to refer to them as my aunt, but damn, life is too short to not be happy so rock your long hair, hormone therapy, size 13 high heels, and be freaking happy with yourself.

I'm a live action cartoon. I fear no anvil.

This country was partly founded to let people be who they want to be without persecution. I say Jenner is odd, but he's harming no one really. his kids are already hosed up.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I feel I am a cartoon anthropomorphic animal trapped in a man's body.

Who did your procedure? If insurance covered it I want to be Popeye, but I want to bag betty boop not olive

Years ago I read online about a successful race shop owner and engine builder who changed genders later in life. Never heard if the new woman kept w/ the racing business. Damn good engines btw they said.

Woulda been kinda funny if it was a Lola shop.

iadr wrote: IDK, I agree with the original poster. The NAACP girl was an abused child, who is still being hounded and abused by her parents at what -45-ish? I have a lot of sympathy with her. She was remaking herself and by all accounts damn good at what she did. Bruce Jenner, an example of courage? Not just no, but HELL NO. It's got very little to do with my sexual politics and a lot to do with the media circus and self-whoring he and his adoptive clan have done.

my post wasn't about the people themselves, but rather the different ways that the same groups of people responded to them... i don't really give a E36 M3 about either of them other than to hope that each of them finds happiness in life, but i find the discrepancy in the responses from the people that claim to be so open minded and inclusive of the different kinds of people to be kind of hypocritical, at best.

that guy that was on a Wheaties box because he ran really fast in the 70's and was on a reality show with crazy people thought of himself as a woman and decided to stop hiding it from the world and live as the person that (s)he thought (s)he always was and that white woman thought of herself as a black woman and not only chose to live as one, but also to get into a position where she could do whatever she thought she could to help the group that she most closely identified with out... two different versions of the same story..

Jenner is the first woman to hold a gold medal in Olympic men's decathlon.

SVreX wrote: Jenner is the first woman to hold a gold medal in Olympic men's decathlon.

There has been talk by the Olympic committee of stripping her of the medal. Which I think is messed up.

In reply to SVreX:

Yet several East German Women won the women's decathlon with testosterone levels higher then competitors on the men's side.

1988RedT2 wrote: #freakshow

QFT

novaderrik wrote: my post wasn't about the people themselves, but rather the different ways that the same groups of people responded to them... i don't really give a E36 M3 about either of them other than to hope that each of them finds happiness in life, but i find the discrepancy in the responses from the people that claim to be so open minded and inclusive of the different kinds of people to be kind of hypocritical, at best.

(Note, the following does not necessarily express my own opinions, but my understanding from hanging in circles that are very progressive.)

The dominant progressive philosophy is that the goal is to be "an ally" rather than to be "tolerant". A big part of that philosophy is that people in the dominant culture do not get to tell a minority group what they should or should not be unhappy or uncomfortable about. Those minority groups explain what is racist/sexist/homophobic/etc., because they are the ones directly affected by it.

In these situations, Caitlyn Jenner is treated as positive because the LGBT community has said this is a positive thing (or at least mostly; there is still critique that Jenner's transition should not be used to judge other trans people since few have the resources to transform so completely as her). She is arguably doing a positive thing because, even if her motivations are selfish and publicity based, she is very public, and people who support LGBT issues can use her as a talking point to normalize being trans and further the cause of trans rights.

The black community has said that what Dolezal did is not cool. That if someone is born white, and they want to be supportive of black culture and black social causes, that they shouldn't do it by trying to change race and present themselves as black. They are labelling that cultural appropriation.

These two minority groups don't get to speak for each other. The black community is by-and-large not particularly accepting of homosexuality or LGBT issues. They don't get to say if what Caitlin Jenner did is improper or not. Similarly, folks who support the right to transition genders, don't get to say whether trying to transition races is the same thing or not. The people who consider themselves allies of both groups listen to what each group is saying about the issue that directly affects that group.

(Again, these explanations do not necessarily represent all of my own views, but I am trying to communicate the philosophy from people more progressive than the norm on this board.)