This is still America right?

pinchvalve wrote: So, they can take you to the psyche ward based on your posts? I take back what I said about the Miata! It is a great car! It is the answer!

Unfortunately for you, you're swinging to the wrong direction.

Clearly, you have been under the influence of subversive elements. You are hereby assigned to vehicluar re-education.

Everything will be okay. You'll be concerned about the texture of your crossover's cupholders, and which shade of beige really defines you as a person, in no time.

4cylndrfury wrote:

PHeller wrote: He was arrested on a mental health warrant. I don't think he will be charged with any crimes.

Its been clearly stated by law enforcement that he was not arrested...at least not formally. Its been clearly stated that he was never served a warrant.

The lawyer is arguing semantics in claiming he was arrested. A police officer putting handcuffs on you does not equal an arrest, it equals detainment. A mental health warrant is described in some detail as applies to one particular jurisdiction here:

http://www.mctx.org/dept/departments_c/county_attorney/mental_health.html

The key being "A Mental Health Warrant authorizes law enforcement to take a person into custody who shows symptoms of a mental illness and who also is at risk for harm to self or others." It is not an arrest, the person is taken into custody. The difference to you or I, were we put in handcuffs and carted away against our will, would seem minor, but in a legal setting the difference is enormous. He was not, according to the law, arrested.

rebelgtp wrote: This is just the tip of the iceberg folks. There are people I have talked to that are convinced there is a war coming and it would be against our own government. Some of these folks are the usual nutters and some are very level headed respectable folks.

I would be one of these people, I do fear that the partisanship in this nation of ours will end up leading to another civil war before the end of my lifetime. The only thing you can do at that point is fight for what you believe in or just deal with everything going on around you.

I also do not want to live in pheller's vision of America. I barely want to live in this current form America has become. What has happened to respect, honesty, common sense, and doing what is right?

I assure everyone here I would be on the government's watchlist if I had won the lottery, trying to think why a private individual would want to own a P38 with working 50's and 20mm.....

Drewsifer wrote: What bothers me is that it started on one path (arrest/detainment) and ended in another (forced mental evaluation). If people REALLY thought he was a danger to him self or others, there is a process for that. That doesn't involve illegal detention. Even if he eventually gets free, think about what message this sends. The FBI can in effect lock you up for 30 days just by saying you're crazy. They don't even have to prove it before hand. This is a very dangerous precedent. I'm not comfortable with the Government doing this, and I'm not comfortable with people supporting it. Think about what power you're giving to people who gain from keeping you down..

I wish I didn't know all the following.

Actually, it doesn't have to be the Fibbies, although if something crosses state lines they can get involved.

The local PD can do exactly the same thing. They can do what is known as a 'wellness check' and if the person being checked on is, in their opinion, batE36 M3 crazy and a danger to themselves or others, they can be taken into protective custody for, you guessed it, psychiatic evaluation. How do they determine if the person is nuts? Through their statements (which could include stuff he posted online) and actions. The statements of others are taken into consideration but are not in and of themselves a reason for the person to be taken into protective custody.

The person is not generally put into a jail; they are usually taken to a local mental health facility. At that point, the person is considered to be involuntarily committed, although there is a time limit which is generally four weeks.

At the end of that period, the person is interviewed by a judge who can, at their discretion, either release them or have them held for a longer period. There's generally a 'three strikes' deal; if this type thing happens three times, the person can be remanded into custody by the state DMH for an unspecified period.

Trust me on this. BTDT myself. Also a good friend's kid just spent 27 court mandated days 'drying out' for a prescription drug abuse problem.

yamaha wrote: I also do not want to live in pheller's vision of America. I barely want to live in this current form America has become. What has happened to respect, honesty, common sense, and doing what is right? I assure everyone here I would be on the government's watchlist if I had won the lottery, trying to think why a private individual would want to own a P38 with working 50's and 20mm.....

Sadly by many those are considered outdated ideals that have no place in a "modern" world. Same as being able to take care of yourself and be self reliant. Many seem to think if we are to live in a modern world it means we must rely on the government to take care of us in every way shape and form.

As for the P38 that would just make me giggle with delight and I wanna be there for target practice.

rebelgtp wrote:

yamaha wrote: I barely want to live in this current form America has become. What has happened to respect, honesty, common sense, and doing what is right?

Sadly by many those are considered outdated ideals that have no place in a "modern" world. Same as being able to take care of yourself and be self reliant.

This country is still strong and full of wonderful people. I don't get it why people on both sides of the "left/right" divide complain about it. We are wealthy, smart, helpful, friendly people almost to a one. If you don't like what America has become, maybe you're part of the problem? Get out more, it's still awesome here.

Worry less about what everyone else is doing and worry more about yourself and your actions and words. This is a good - no - a great place to live.

dculberson wrote:

rebelgtp wrote:

yamaha wrote: I barely want to live in this current form America has become. What has happened to respect, honesty, common sense, and doing what is right?

Sadly by many those are considered outdated ideals that have no place in a "modern" world. Same as being able to take care of yourself and be self reliant. Many seem to think if we are to live in a modern world it means we must rely on the government to take care of us in every way shape and form. As for the P38 that would just make me giggle with delight and I wanna be there for target practice.

This country is still strong and full of wonderful people. I don't get it why people on both sides of the "left/right" divide complain about it. We are wealthy, smart, helpful, friendly people almost to a one. If you don't like what America has become, maybe you're part of the problem? Get out more, it's still awesome here. Worry less about what everyone else is doing and worry more about yourself and your actions and words. This is a good - no - a great place to live.

Thats precisely what I do day to day......there are good people who still believe in what is right and such......that number just increases everyday.

rebel, I mainly want to be able to give the A10 guys in ft wayne an amusing treat.....considering they use our barns and farm equipment for practice runs......come out of that and WTF, a P38.....

dculberson wrote: This country is still strong and full of wonderful people. I don't get it why people on both sides of the "left/right" divide complain about it. We are wealthy, smart, helpful, friendly people almost to a one. If you don't like what America has become, maybe you're part of the problem? Get out more, it's still awesome here. Worry less about what everyone else is doing and worry more about yourself and your actions and words. This is a good - no - a great place to live.

People have an obligation to show outrage at the outrageous encroachment of government into the lives of all those good and wonderful people. It is how you keep them free.

Ignoring the little abuses (btw, egregious has become the new little) while it is all sunshine and roses is a sure way to guarantee they do not stay that way for long.

http://www.the-ace.org.uk/armageddon/

At least we don't have to deal with this BS.

In reply to 93EXCivic:

[sarcasm] Europe is so awesome, why can't we be more like them. [sarcasm]

O'Brien wrote:

dculberson wrote: This country is still strong and full of wonderful people. I don't get it why people on both sides of the "left/right" divide complain about it. We are wealthy, smart, helpful, friendly people almost to a one. If you don't like what America has become, maybe you're part of the problem? Get out more, it's still awesome here. Worry less about what everyone else is doing and worry more about yourself and your actions and words. This is a good - no - a great place to live.

People have an obligation to show outrage at the outrageous encroachment of government into the lives of all those good and wonderful people. It is how you keep them free. Ignoring the little abuses (btw, egregious has become the new little) while it is all sunshine and roses is a sure way to guarantee they do not stay that way for long.

Pointing out abuses is not the same as saying "I barely want to live in this current form America has become."

And this current instance is not necessarily an "egregious abuse." As I pointed out previously we do not have a lot of facts in this case yet and it appears to my eyes to be a simple mental health commitment of which thousands occur every year.

It seems to me that some people's "outrage" button is just a little too sensitive.

dculberson wrote: And this current instance is not necessarily an "egregious abuse."

By egregious I was pointing more to the TSA taking control over who gets to fly, the assassination of american citizens w/o due process, Corporations as people and a whole other host of things that could be on the cover of Fascism Enthusiasts Quarterly.

But, having the FBI determine you are crazy, show up without a warrant and cart you off to be detained for a month based solely on your online persona does seem to qualify. Other details notwithstanding - how is that ever OK but not an arrest-able offense for which a crime has been committed or probable cause established?

O'Brien,

Your list of "14 Signs of Fascism" identifies more with tea party and conservative religious right than it does with liberal socialist left.

Xenophobia (racism, anti-Islam, anti-Atheist, pro-Israel), denial of human rights (health care), identification of scapegoats (Obama), militarism (more access to guns, limited cuts to military), sexism (return to religious values, women in the kitchen kinda stuff), religious and ruling elite tied together, power of corporations protected (laise fair), power of labor suppressed (anti-union), disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts (cut funding to arts programs), obsession with crime and punishment (vigilantism), rampant cronyism and corruption (business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves).

I'd vote for atheist tea-party or libertarian, but most of the Republican and Religious Right has had a real hard time separating church and state for my liking.

O'Brien wrote: By egregious I was pointing more to the TSA taking control over who gets to fly, the assassination of american citizens w/o due process, Corporations as people and a whole other host of things that could be on the cover of Fascism Enthusiasts Quarterly.

I definitely agree with the assassination, extraordinary rendition, and corporations with unlimited donations are egregious. Definitely won't argue with you there. Hopefully these are short lived things but we'll see.

O'Brien wrote: But, having the FBI determine you are crazy, show up without a warrant and cart you off to be detained for a month based solely on your online persona does seem to qualify. Other details notwithstanding - how is that ever OK but not an arrest-able offense for which a crime has been committed or probable cause established?

Mental health detainment happens all the time. I do not know the details in this specific case (nor do any of us) so can't comment on it but in general these are not bad things. Sometimes people do need protected even from themselves and often times (more often that not in fact) someone that might have committed - or even did attempt - suicide ends up living a long time and does not re-attempt suicide. Saving a life even if it has some coarse moments seems like a good thing to me.

Going out on a limb, I somehow doubt this was 100% due to his online postings. But again I don't know - and neither does anyone else here. There are some people that know and they're the ones that made the call to hospitalize him.

PHeller wrote: I'd vote for atheist tea-party or libertarian, but most of the Republican and Religious Right has had a real hard time separating church and state for my liking.

Congratulations, you must of stepped up your game, because the part in bold was not a predictable statement from you. Also, I agree with your whole statement quoted here, everything above it was a bit too much of the normal stuff from the left for me.

dculberson wrote: Pointing out abuses is not the same as saying "I barely want to live in this current form America has become."

Precisely, which is why the statement should be taken that much more seriously. That is why I said it.

This nation is broken, and has been for a long time. Unless something is done to correct the abuses targeting the rights this nation was founded upon, it will destroy us from within. The events following Sept. 11, 2001,(along with many many events prior), showed us that public fear would allow the government to cast the population's rights aside with support. In that regard, the terrorists won, America is not as free as it was before.

This is a slippery slope, and I fear this nation is already rolling full steam towards the bottom.

4cylndrfury wrote: In indiana, its ok for officers to enter your home, without a warrant, and take your possessions, and arrest you. It is illegal for you to resist in any way. Their justification? Its better to just let the police have their way, without any tussle. You can go to the courts if you think there was any wrong doing on the officers part.

Actually, that is not true. Yes, a supreme court ruling stated just that, so to counter such a ridiculous and unconstitutional ruling, the Indiana State Legislature enacted a new law making it legal to resist illegal intrusions.

Something our local legislaters got right.

Bobzilla wrote: Something our local legislaters got right.

Local governments "get it right" a hell of alot more often than the federal government.

Bobzilla wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote: In indiana, its ok for officers to enter your home, without a warrant, and take your possessions, and arrest you. It is illegal for you to resist in any way. Their justification? Its better to just let the police have their way, without any tussle. You can go to the courts if you think there was any wrong doing on the officers part.

Actually, that is not true. Yes, a supreme court ruling stated just that, so to counter such a ridiculous and unconstitutional ruling, the Indiana State Legislature enacted a new law making it legal to resist illegal intrusions. Something our local legislaters got right.

Im glad to hear that Bob...I hadnt heard about the new law allowing the resistance. At least the little guy wins once in a while.

4cylndrfury wrote:

Bobzilla wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote: In indiana, its ok for officers to enter your home, without a warrant, and take your possessions, and arrest you. It is illegal for you to resist in any way. Their justification? Its better to just let the police have their way, without any tussle. You can go to the courts if you think there was any wrong doing on the officers part.

Actually, that is not true. Yes, a supreme court ruling stated just that, so to counter such a ridiculous and unconstitutional ruling, the Indiana State Legislature enacted a new law making it legal to resist illegal intrusions. Something our local legislaters got right.

Im glad to hear that Bob...I hadnt heard about the new law allowing the resistance. At least the little guy wins once in a while.

So long as you don't get shot in the process for resisting...

*Please do not read this as I am anti police because I am not. Our local cops here are actually really good. However as the old saying goes "One bad apple spoils the bunch". We very rarely hear about the good cops out there and only here about those that are abusing their position.

PHeller wrote: O'Brien, Your list of "14 Signs of Fascism" identifies more with tea party and conservative religious right than it does with liberal socialist left.

There is no right or left. Those are illusions for us to quibble over. There is only "in charge" and whomever it is is trampling your civil rights.

BTW, that is not my list - I listed credit for who wrote it so as not lead to that conclusion. The whole article is solid. Check out the link.

O'Brien wrote:

PHeller wrote: O'Brien, Your list of "14 Signs of Fascism" identifies more with tea party and conservative religious right than it does with liberal socialist left.

There is no right or left. Those are illusions for us to quibble over. There is only "in charge" and whomever it is is trampling your civil rights. BTW, that is not my list - I listed credit for who wrote it so as not lead to that conclusion. The whole article is solid. Check out the link.

First of all - agreed. Second of all - I am a big fan of the new name. I'd prefer you keep it.

O'Brien wrote:

PHeller wrote: O'Brien, Your list of "14 Signs of Fascism" identifies more with tea party and conservative religious right than it does with liberal socialist left.

There is no right or left. Those are illusions for us to quibble over. There is only "in charge" and whomever it is is trampling your civil rights. BTW, that is not my list - I listed credit for who wrote it so as not lead to that conclusion. The whole article is solid. Check out the link.

Ive felt for a long time that the whole 2 party system is designed not to allow for healthy debate and a variety of ideas, nor has it established itself as a "check & balance" type situation...its been foisted upon us to keep us busy arguing over who is right or wrong. It keeps ideas to a minimum - youre either with us or against us ("US" Being whoever has the most henchmen doing the dirty-work in office at the time). If we are busy arguing over which hate monger mongered the most recent hate, we wont notice whats happening behind the scenes if we only just took a moment to peak behind the curtain. ...

remember the chick-filla gay rights debat? Same type of stuff (for those who cant remeber what I consider one of my masterpieces, here is a refresher)

Hey, wrap your mind around this scenario:

A Channel 7 news alert, lake breaking story at 5pm: Earlier today, someone said something that someone else didnt like about a gay sandwich

nearly an hour later

OMFG, ok, so, after an hour of debate, we know the Gays hate sandwiches, and the sandwiches hate the gays! Dianne, I think the sky is falling! Someone set us up the bomb, all ur base are belong to us!!

meanwhile:

hey guys, if theyre all arguing about homosexual sandwiches, no one will ever even see it coming when we berkley them in their asses

I know, Merkuns all have the dumb, plus, Im rich beeotch

lulz, see what we did there? kekekeke

Another typical debate where some stay on-topic and others use it to promote their particular agendas.

Kudos to Curmudgeon for providing the info on mental health commitment. Unfortunately I have also been the one to initiate this process.

4cylndrfury wrote:

Outraged onlookers filmed the arrest and posted the footage to YouTube. Law enforcement officials have stated in press reports that Raub was not arrested.

Something doesn't smell right with the above quote. Who were the "outraged onlookers"? If it was a family member, OK. But if it was some outsiders, I smell a setup. Cops don't advertise when they are going out to pick someone up

In reply to 4cylndrfury:

Where did that cheat code begin? I remember it being the game winner on age of empires.....

Edit:: plus one btw......that was epic there, and epic here.