Thought exercise with possible real-world generator application

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Toyman01 + Sized and said:

A Honda 2000eu is about 53db at 25% load. That's going to be substantially quieter than just about any engine you can buy. I have read that the WEN inverter generator is even quieter at 49db. Half as loud as the Honda.

I see the point.  It will be hard to find a 1 hp gas engine that is quieter.  I just don't really like the size aspect, nor do I like that it is not proportional to demand.

 

Have you ever seen a Flintstones lunchbox from the 60's?  Honda makes, or made, generators that size.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Simple answer: Yes. You can use a small gas engine to run an alternator to charge batteries.  Will it be less obnoxious than a Honda?  No.  At least not without installing it in a well baffled (re: large) enclosure to muffle the noise while still providing adequate air flow to cool the engine.  It will be a challenge to build that enclosure smaller than a Honda.

Streetwiseguy said:

Have you ever seen a Flintstones lunchbox from the 60's?  Honda makes, or made, generators that size.

That has my interest. I have not seen any that small... any search suggestions?

Toyman01 + Sized and said:

Back to the fridge. How much space do you need? Their 50 liter is only $319. Link is HERE.

the price on those has come down A LOT, since I first looked into them! That will make SWMBO happy for our future rig. Thanks for the link

Streetwiseguy said:

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Toyman01 + Sized and said:

A Honda 2000eu is about 53db at 25% load. That's going to be substantially quieter than just about any engine you can buy. I have read that the WEN inverter generator is even quieter at 49db. Half as loud as the Honda.

I see the point.  It will be hard to find a 1 hp gas engine that is quieter.  I just don't really like the size aspect, nor do I like that it is not proportional to demand.

 

Have you ever seen a Flintstones lunchbox from the 60's?  Honda makes, or made, generators that size.

I have an Ohlsson and Rice Tiny Tiger on the shelf in my shop. It's 300 watts and tiny. Unfortunately, it's also a 2 stroke and kind of smelly. 

Last year I bought one of those fancy coolers, and with dry ice in the bottom and packing it with ice, it still had ice in it after days of 100 degree weather out on a houseboat deck. Everything else should be good to go with a couple plain old lead acid batteries. Could even rotate them through the engine bay if you wanted to forgo the whole charging setup. KISS. Jcamper

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

When I worked at an equipment rental, I never could have been prepared for the number of people who came in asking for an electric generator instead of gas.  People straight up wanted to generate electricity with electricity.

I can understand people not understanding how it works, but at its most base level, they're asking for an implement that generates electricity in a place where they already have electricity

Those do exist, although probably not for the reasons the customers intended to use them for. They're typically used for single phase to 3 phase power conversion, DC to AC before solid state inverters became the norm, and other things that aren't (or previously weren't) easy to convert other ways.

03Panther said:

Streetwiseguy said:

Have you ever seen a Flintstones lunchbox from the 60's?  Honda makes, or made, generators that size.

That has my interest. I have not seen any that small... any search suggestions?

Honda E40 or E40ii, I think from the 60's. My guess would be that anything that it could power is now much better done with even a small battery pack.

GIRTHQUAKE said:

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Keep talking.  I know so little about alternate battery tech (other than experimenting with 18650s scavenged from laptop batteries and cordless power tools).

So you've got 2 different types you can go for as I see it- Nickel Metal Hydrides, or a lithium architecture. I suppose I could also count Nickel-Iron "Edison" batteries too, but they are honestly so heavy, difficult and specialized the only time I ever saw some for sale were from a railyard powering lights.

NiMH cells can be yanked out of most hybrids and tend to come in nice, consistent packs that need only air cooling thanks to the cell physically not pumping out enough juice (or having anything oxidizing like lithiums) to really start itself on fire. Prius cells I know, are ~201 Volts nominal and about 6.5 Amp hours. Their cells are prismatics, long and thin like an odd book and the whole pack runs close to the length and width of the back seats.

Usingg NiMH would be hard. They're built to be charged off the alternator no problem, but I have NO concept of what Toyota uses for a Delta-V to charge them- the special algorithm that tapers charge to the cell based on internal resistance or something- but I do know aftermarket chargers do exist. I'm also not sure if you can just Yoinky-sploinky the charge electronics out of a Prius and adapt it to the pack itself either; turning the battery into a standalone would be very easy, but charging it would be an exercise. Still tho, they have a cycle lifespan of like ~10 years if you treat them well and NiMH can handle some wild temps. There are Prii running decades on the OG Packs. I know they are also in other hybrids like the Ford Escapes and some others.

Lithium has other problems from NiMH; cost is higher, charging is far easier, Weight is much less, voltage and capacity are far higher. If you use Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt type- the Tesla and tool pack cell, Lithium Ion- It'll be one that can explode if not treated properly and cannot take extreme temps. If you go for the hardier and not nearly-as-explodey Lithium Iron Phosphate, you'll have about 60% the total charge as said NMC cells and less voltage but trade for more than double the lifespan and some of the best temperature resistance known, and also gain far higher discharge rates thanks to that Iron Olivine complex they have.

Used NMC cells can be picked up from wrecked Hybrids and EVs, and it would be pretty easy to make a charger that could plug into the 12v in your car with some kind of voltage step-up (obviously at the cost of efficiency) and it would be something in a metal case with obvious busbars. LiFEPO4, the Phosphates, are a little bit harder- you can still get them in packs, but China is the one nation that really uses them, so if you find some they're typically out of a bus or from a failed startup.

For 400Ah, you're probably looking only at NMC and phosphates unless you find Prius cells on the cheap and a guide to use them out of the car. Some of the phosphate batteries at 400Ah on Amazon are the size of two car batteries end-to-end.

This is a lot to unpack, so I'm off to research stuff.

Thank you!

So... unpacking this:

Can you clarify.  Li-ion includes all the Lithium-based chemistries and NiMH includes all of the nickel-based chemistries?  There is one sentence in there that confuses me.  I'm reading it as "if you use NMC - which are the Li-ion batteries like tesla and tool batteries..."  I'm confused that an NMC is a Li-ion battery.

Edit:  NMC is short for LiNMC, right?  So still a Lithium category, but includes the other three?

Any resources you maybe know of to point me toward the types of chemistry and pros/cons/applications?

+1 for... embrace the honda, or better battery tech.

FWIW I have a friend who lived out of a van for the last year.  He had a small solar setup and no generator whatsoever.  The beer in the fridge was always cold.  He had a pretty small lead acid battery bank.

Toyman01 + Sized and said:

Streetwiseguy said:

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Toyman01 + Sized and said:

A Honda 2000eu is about 53db at 25% load. That's going to be substantially quieter than just about any engine you can buy. I have read that the WEN inverter generator is even quieter at 49db. Half as loud as the Honda.

I see the point.  It will be hard to find a 1 hp gas engine that is quieter.  I just don't really like the size aspect, nor do I like that it is not proportional to demand.

 

Have you ever seen a Flintstones lunchbox from the 60's?  Honda makes, or made, generators that size.

I have an Ohlsson and Rice Tiny Tiger on the shelf in my shop. It's 300 watts and tiny. Unfortunately, it's also a 2 stroke and kind of smelly. 

Oh that's adorable.

That's exactly what I was thinking, but quieter.

Apexcarver said:

https://www.harborfreight.com/generators-engines/generators/1400-watt-super-quiet-inverter-generator-with-co-secure-57063.html

At $430 before coupons, there really isnt a reason to do something else for camping to me.  You will likely spend more rolling your own if you arent cobbling together used junkyard parts.  Build a sound enclosure for it and you can achieve quieter as well.  

Agreed.

And build what I'll call an "exhaust bong"...run an exhaust pipe down into a container of water and let the exhaust bubble up.

Additionally, I wonder if some old sound canceling headphones could be hacked to create white noise.

I live 100 percent off grid, no power unless I make it. Here's a couple quick points.

If you don't want any sound at all you are at batteries and solar. Since you don't want solar you are at battery only.

Electric fridges are a terrible idea for limited power. You ideally don't want to use a huge bulk of your power on anything, fridge included. You don't want a propane fridge, which is what I use and would probably suit you best, so what you need is a good icebox. A block of ice and a great ice box will get you many days.

If you want to use 400ah you need a battery bank of 800ah ideally. Flooded cell is never dropped below 50 percent and is cheapest but other options vary.

Your fan can be battery powered, like AA powered.

Your TV watching can be a laptop and a set of headphones. Even rechargable bluetooth speakers use very little juice to recharge.

Your lights can be battery powered puck lights, again AA.

If you use the above your outlay is a good cooler, batteries of your choice, a couple of puck lights and the laptop( unless you have one)

The basic rule for battery power is you never ever ever want to use power that you don't have to. If these are short trips you could size your battery bank to last the whole trip, but I want to stress that batteries are not like gas gauges. You do not want to use them all the way up.

Also you should look into golf cart batteries for ultimate cheapness especially the Trojan t105. It's a 6v 225ah battery and it's what I've always used

Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:

I live 100 percent off grid, no power unless I make it. Here's a couple quick points.

 

If you don't want any sound at all you are at batteries and solar. Since you don't want solar you are at battery only.

 

Electric fridges are a terrible idea for limited power. You ideally don't want to use a huge bulk of your power on anything, fridge included. You don't want a propane fridge, which is what I use and would probably suit you best, so what you need is a good icebox. A block of ice and a great ice box will get you many days.

 

If you want to use 400ah you need a battery bank of 800ah ideally. Flooded cell is never dropped below 50 percent and is cheapest but other options vary.

 

Your fan can be battery powered, like AA powered.

 

Your TV watching can be a laptop and a set of headphones. Even rechargable bluetooth speakers use very little juice to recharge.

 

Your lights can be battery powered puck lights, again AA.

 

If you use the above your outlay is a good cooler, batteries of your choice, a couple of puck lights and the laptop( unless you have one)

 

The basic rule for battery power is you never ever ever want to use power that you don't have to. If these are short trips you could size your battery bank to last the whole trip, but I want to stress that batteries are not like gas gauges. You do not want to use them all the way up.

Wise input from someone who lives the life.  Thank you.

Just to clarify... I WOULD LOVE solar, but A) the roof rack is necessary for work, and B) I usually camp in places like this:

Kinda terrible for solar.  I'm more interested in something that doesn't rely on environmental factors as much.  Generators run the same when it's shaded.

Also, it's not that I'm against a propane fridge.  I have two of them in two RVs.  Great units.  Heavy, large, and have pretty specific venting needs.  It also requires relatively level operation which may or may not exist where I choose to camp.  I could level the unit itself everytime I stop.  It would also mean at least a 10-lb cylinder as even the smaller ones burn about 3/4-lb per day.  Having said that, I'll look into it since you clearly have valuable experience with them.  Any ideas on what to look for in a propane/absorp unit?  Looking for probably 40 quarts.

Disagree politely about the AA fan.  If it's 90 degrees, a AA fan is good for noise.  I need it to actually move air.  Even when I tent, I take a 10" box fan  Also politely disagree with the cooler.  A couple years ago I invested in a Yeti for my tenting.  Unless it's 65 degrees outside, I can get two days tops, and that's only if at least half the volume is ice.  The whole point of this is to disappear.  If I have to only camp where I can go to town every 2-3 days to get ice, it violates the entire point of why I'm doing this.  I would rather take all canned goods and drink warm beer than try to boondock with the Yeti.  Coolers mean that I either have to pause the trip to get ice, or I have to pause the trip because my food spoiled and I have to restock.  Weekend?  Great.  Two bags of ice and some ham and cheese.  10 days when I want to completely disappear with nothing but a couple novels and my camera and a canoe?  Yeti won't cut it.

The rest I totally agree with.  The less power I use, the better.  I realize I will need supplemental power in the form of a generator or alternator.  I would love solar, but that limits where I can camp to unshaded places.

I do have a small arsenal of rechargeable puck lights that double as power packs as well as some straight power packs.  When I tent, I have a briefcase solar thing that I use to charge the power packs during the day and use them for phones at night  (although the phone usually gets turned off for most of the trip).   If I'm cautious, I can charge two larger packs and the puck lights and that will be good for a week of reading Stuart Woods novels when the sun goes down.  The nice thing about those things is that you could probably recharge them 20 times from a cigarette lighter port without really affecting the van battery.

Laptops I have coming out of my ears.  It seems like everyone donates their old laptop to me at the theater.  I think I currently have 5 that work fine and 2 that don't.  I'll have to look into their wattage consumption because none of them have a battery that would last through The Wrath of Khan.

Good counterpoint and great advice.  Thank you.

Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:

Also you should look into golf cart batteries for ultimate cheapness especially the Trojan t105. It's a 6v 225ah battery and it's what I've always used

Also pretty rugged.  Whatever storage I choose will go into a "pan" that replaces the belly-mount spare, and the spare will be moved to a tailgate mount.

I also realize that I'm completely out of my element.  I either camp in an RV with 30 amps of shore power and A/C, or I tent with a campfire and a backpack.  I've never tried to shoot the middle.

Small wind generator?  Have no idea sizing but a possibility? Clamp onto roof rack while parked.... I do know they size them for sailboats and cabin cruisers, I can't help but think someone has made them for remote cabin use.

example:Nature Power Wind Turbine — 400 Watt, 12 Volt, Marine Grade, Model# 70500 | Northern Tool

You know, any of the 4 stroke weed wacker engines on the market would probably turn your alternator and do what you wanted. With a decent muffler and an enclosure to direct the sound up, it would probably be fairly quiet as well. 

Something like this might work as well. 

https://www.amazon.com/TBVECHI-4-Stroke-Motorized-Bicycle-Scooter/dp/B07PSGWJP3/ref=sr_1_6?crid=3LO6DC9PIPK58&dchild=1&keywords=50cc+4+stroke+engine&qid=1619229339&sprefix=50cc+4+stroke%2Caps%2C200&sr=8-6

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

Those did cross my mind.  I also gave thought to something like a 50cc scooter engine.  Properly muffled they are pretty quiet.

Not sure about the areas you camp but a 7mph wind seems possible. I have no attachment to Northern was just the first sub 20 pound unit I located. If you got say 16-18 hours daily out of a wind unit would it make running van almost redundant?

800W 12V 5 Blade Lantern Wind Turbine Vertical Axis Power Energy W/Controller US | eBay

Put 2 into duffel bags. Put in van when going out. Install one on either side of roof rack tied into your add on battery bank. 

Some info: 

There are plenty of brands available across the globe offering RV Wind turbines. But who are the leading companies in this market? The brand you choose for your RV wind turbine should offer a wide range of features while adhering to the quality of the product. If you are planning to buy a wind turbine for your RV, I have shortlisted some popular brands that you can consider:

• ECO-WORTHY Store
• Pikasola Store
• Marsrock
• Automaxx
• YaeMarine
• Yaegarden
• SHZOND

Off track thought to make you own: model glider wings on generator/alternator??

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I get you on the solar, it really wouldn't be that effective.

I've worked with people that have got many days with a big block of ice and a yeti in 100 degree heat set it in the shade. Are you using crushed ice or a big block? Even my meh work cooler will keep crushed ice for 2 days.

True on the fan, although I was assuming that since you were in heavy forest cover it would be cooler. There are bigger D battery ones that could work but it depends on your comfort level. I heavily insulated my house and built in the shade. Very rarely have I wished for a/c.

Is 10 days the goal? That's stretching a lot of ideas. 10 days without recharge could mean a pretty big battery bank and limited usage. In that case I'd do the ice box and enjoy cold stuff for the first few days and go to canned/dried/salted for food after. A stream could keep stuff cold though too. 10 days would probably be a 5 gallon propane tank, my older Dometic uses about that in 20 days so you'd have a cushion. I am not terribly up on smaller propane fridges so I'm very little help there, all my experience is with the biggest ones I can get my hands on.

Remember that people did all of this before any modern conveniences, see if you can adapt or just outright use a lot of what they did back in the day.

My luggable laptop when it was in tip top battery shape would run for 7 hours on a battery. That's 3 2 hour movies and some change. If that was me I'd probably buy a few battery packs and take them with me. A tablet with downloaded stuff would last even longer and take less juice to charge too, it does limit your options though. UPS units actually hold a decent amount of juice for these situations too 

ummmm  how about a pedal bike set-up to turn a 12v alternator , probably enough to charge a phone , led lights and maybe a laptop....

You need to work off those cold beers somehow !

http://theselfsufficientliving.com/diy-wind-turbine-designs-to-generate-off-grid-power/