Tough topic that I would appreciate some serious discussion on - Marijuana and social services

This, to me, sounds like the traditional "hand out vs hand up" discussion with a twist.

You provide hand outs and a hand up on a regular basis. You've identified a small subset people group that is more interested in the hand out.

Besides the bureaucracy attached to any government position, there is a concern expressed that these people you are just taking the hand out are not only damaging themselves by not moving forward, they are also "stealing" from others who are in need.

This supposes that anybody not moving forward is sliding backwards. Staying even isn't an option.

I think I believe that myself but I could easily be swayed against it.

I suppose you could start working on a policy change that would allow you to cut loose those who do not see "sufficient" forward progress allowing for others to come in.

Though you would probably have to accept the mental model that you, as an agent of society, has now deemed these people not worth "helping", confirming a fact they probably started believing long ago.

All that to say - I've probably not added anything helpful.

In reply to Patrick :

I don't think the use of MJ is the question here. As I understand the OP, I think the problem is people using the system solely to get cash. They have no interest in their mental health beyond the $$$ it pays out every month.

Remove weed from the equation and the issue becomes people wanting hand outs vs a helping hand. They could smell like cigarettes and I'd still assume they're looking for hand outs for their fix. Replace it with alcohol; same thing. 

OP likely mentioned weed because it's noticeable and this subset group he's dealt with noticeably smoke/vape pot. Considering he's also dealt with them for some period of time on a personal level, he's likely been able to get a feel as to whether or not they actually do have mental health issues or not and if they ever plan on getting off this program.

I'd personally boot them and make room for people the program was actually designed for. The only reason it's continued on for so long is because no one wants to deal with their complaints.

Edit: Just remember, not everyone can or wants to be saved.

You're talking about people like my brother. He's been on public assistance nearly his entire adult life and will remain so as long as he can keep it together enough to do the paperwork. The likely outcome is that when my parents pass away (he lives with them) his life will spiral into either homlesness or suicide. 

He uses marijuana as his preferred mental health drug. He prefers it over the heavier antidepressants that he's been on. Through rigorous experimentation he's figured out a mixture of prescription drugs and weed that keeps him voluntarily alive and able to help my parents out. That same combination of drugs makes him intelligible to work anyplace that does drug testing in the state that he lives, which is almost anywhere, and honestly, he's too stoned to be good at much other than helping around the house anyway. 

The thing that lets him function enough to get out of bed keeps him low functioning enough that he's not and never will be a productive member of society. There isn't a solution for that and I suspect that a lot of your clients are in the same boat. I don't have an answer. 

Toyman01 said:

In reply to Patrick :

I don't think the use of MJ is the question here. As I understand the OP, I think the problem is people using the system solely to get cash. They have no interest in their mental health beyond the $$$ it pays out every month.

 

Correct. These programs have limited funds and space and I have clients that legitimately need the hand up being kept out by these people who are abusing the system so that they can abuse THC.

On the question about where they get the extra money, I agree that they are probably exaggerating their usage and also a combination of selling food benefits, shoplifting, breaking and entering, sex work, and selling their prescriptions that they receive as part of their mental health treatment. I cannot report any crime that happens outside of the premises, so they are pretty upfront about it.

Javelin said:

In reply to Curtis :

I really appreciate what you've said here. I think maybe that was the perspective I needed to hear was to address what the clients are soothing from while helping them through their dark times. There are a handful that I believe can make it and I will redouble my efforts in working with them.

That said, there are a few that maybe need more services than I can provide. They are too deep in the self-soothing to be reached at this point. I also wonder about the addictive effects of THC itself and the very real possibilities of other substances being in the e-juices, distillates, and waxes being used. 

Do some research; medical journals, clinical studies, scientific research, and compare it to your education of brain chemistry and function.  THC is classified scientifically and medically as a non-addictive substance.

Of course, as you and I both know, a brain can have any one of several dysfunctions that can become addicted to anything including water, so as with anything, the effects of THC can be an addictive compulsion for people.  A metaphor: let's say someone has chronic foot pain, so they take ibuprofen religiously.  Even though ibuprofen is not addictive, they could develop a panic if they run out of ibuprofen and feel the "need" to take the pills.  Then a doctor discovers and surgically removes a bone spur, and there is no addiction to ibuprofen so they simply set it aside.  I won't say that THC is quite that innocuous since it does have psychological effects, but the chemical itself is not addictive.

The vaping deaths that have been in the news recently have been pretty heavily researched and found to be from a high concentration of vitamin E in bootleg or blackmarket THC vape juice.  It is certainly a concern, but (not to be callous) that is a choice that the individual makes.  In that way, I don't blame the THC, I blame their poor judgement.  The penalty is death which we want to avoid, but I separate the THC from the risk of death.  I would advocate for sourcing "clean" weed of course, but the THC is not the issue in my research.  A doctor can prescribe self-injected antihistamines, but they can't control the safety with which they are injected.  Similar scenario.  You can make weed legal, but you can't control how people use it.

What is the law?  Last I heard, MJ was still a drug according to the Fed.  Whether or not we agree with that assessment is not for us to decide in this .  Does Federal law state that MJ/THC use makes one ineligible for assistance?  If so, there is your answer.  Not following the law leaves you vulnerable to fraud accusations. 

Patrick said:

Replace MJ with cigarettes and nicotine vapes.  How do you feel now?  It's not much different.  If someone came in smelling like they just smoked a heater, you wouldn't think anything of it.  Society until very recently had us convinced that you get reefer madness, but cigarettes are cool.
 

 Most of us here are old enough that that was the message we received.  DARE officers came to school, told us how weed was a gateway drug, and we watched racecars with cigarettes and other tobacco ads on them while our tv icons all had a marlboro hanging out their mouth.  In reality, weed isn't anywhere near as bad as nicotine, but we're still conditioned that pot is bad.  Nevermind i think sucking anything into your lungs besides air is pretty not smart, but just think about it and how you're conditioned.  
 

people get hooked on everything.  You're addicted to buying cars(me too), some people get hooked on weed, some shoot heroin, some are addicted to food, and some lucky people can practice moderation in every facet of their lives.  
 

I use some plant based medication for pain, but don't use it enough to get high because I do not like altering my mental state.  I don't drink, and it took me until 37 to get over the stigma society forced down my throat about how horribe MJ is to even try a bite of a cookie that my buddy made for me when i was having horrible back pain and refusing to take narcotic pain killers.  I get it, I understand the stigma.  

So much truth here.  We, as a society, have been fed so much propaganda that "all drugs are bad," but the alcohol that kills our liver, and the cigarettes that give us lung cancer are just fine.

It will take a while for the last 40 years of research suggesting weed is fine to soak in to society's brain.

FuzzWuzzy said:

Edit: Just remember, not everyone can or wants to be saved.

Hmm, that is a true statement. I suppose I could staff each person with my supervisor and figure out how we decide when to recognize that someone doesn't want to be saved and then exit from there. If they want to recover then we'll continue offering services and encouraging their efforts.

Toyman01 said:

I'm of the opinion that if they are obviously abusing the system to get cash to stay high, I'd report them and get them booted. 

I would approach it from this perspective. Most government and non-profit agencies have a limited number of people they can help. If someone abusing the system is taking up one of the few spaces, then someone that really needs and wants the help is going without. I would get the dead wood out of the system. 

My 2 cents. Take into consideration I could not and would not do your job for 10 times the money. I am not compassionate enough. 

Slippery slope.  Discerning who is dead wood and who genuinely needs help is difficult.  I would much rather have an abuser on my client list than a dead person who WAS on my client list.

Kind of echoing what Seth said, a lot of people staying high are self medicating to avoid cost or side effects of the awful meds that are prescribed to them.  Yes, weed has medicinal value for some things and you likely would not be happy with the outcome if some or most of them didnt get high.  I smoked for 2 decades and stopped with no issues, and i feel its at minimum hypocritical for alcohol to be just fine but weed will still get you jail or prison most places.  That said, there's a time and place for recreational mind alterations, not all day, every day and the system has always been broken.  Everyone has heard the story about a woman with a grocery cart full of meat saying it was for the dogs because you cant by dog food with food stamps.  I have a patient at one of the dialysis clinics i take care of that has a willing donor who is a perfect match (his sister) but would have to pass a drug test to get it and then he "wouldnt get his checks anymore" so he is at the dialysis clinic 6 hours a day, 3 days a week.  Thats just INSANE to me but what do you do?  I'd say if weed is legal there you just have to deal with it, even if it isnt fair to you and the ones you really help.  Thats what i do, i focus on the patients that appreciate my help and do the right thing and the others are the price i have to pay.

Also generally speaking, it costs a lot less from your buddy's neighbor's cousin than it does at a legit dispensary.  So using dispensary pricing to assume how much people are spending on it is not a good calculation.  
 

the cynic in me knows there are plenty of people that game the system for life, but the other side of the story is I bet it's a very small percentage of those actually getting assistance.  I wouldn't want to be in the position of being the judge, jury, and executioner of someone's mental health assistance.  

Well.... you could look at it this way: There are a certain percentage that cannot be helped (don't want to be) and just soak the system.  The system as it is provides no motivation for them move out of it if they are OK with what they have. BUT, what is he other option?  If you cut these people loose, where do they end up?  I would guess there is a good possibility they move on to crime to get what they need, which may lead them to jail, both of which have a clear negative effect on society (money wise or otherwise).

I would also say, one useful thing you could do it try to make sure they don't move on to more damaging drugs.  Having a bunch of zero use people around high on pot is highly preferable to them being on Meth or Heroine, both of which are likely to result in them generating a huge drain on the medical system.

That of course basically turns you into a baby sitter, but that does have the function of potentially saving society a lot of money and trauma.  Of course, the downside of that is if there is a limited budget and you are not able to help those that might actually want it.

If the rock bottom of society is that they spend their life in crappy government housing doped up on pot, that's likely a lot cheaper and less damaging to the rest of society then having them wander the streets and do whatever they need or want to do.  Heck, I would almost want to make it a requirement that they use the THC!

Look at it as the price we pay (kind of like insurance) to keep them from being even more of a drain then they already are.

Javelin said:

FuzzWuzzy said:

Edit: Just remember, not everyone can or wants to be saved.

Hmm, that is a true statement. I suppose I could staff each person with my supervisor and figure out how we decide when to recognize that someone doesn't want to be saved and then exit from there. If they want to recover then we'll continue offering services and encouraging their efforts.

While I agree, I don't think we should abandon them.  Possibly find more intensive help.  There are plenty out there who don't WANT to be saved and that is their dysfunction.  Many suicidal people fall into this category, but I can't think of a single formerly suicidal person who wishes they had never been helped.

Patrick said:

the cynic in me knows there are plenty of people that game the system for life, but the other side of the story is I bet it's a very small percentage of those actually getting assistance.  I wouldn't want to be in the position of being the judge, jury, and executioner of someone's mental health assistance.  

I agree, but I take it one step further.  I don't care what people do with the money they get from my tax dollars.  It makes zero impact on me if they spend their fixed assistance income on ramen noodles, steak and lobster, or drugs.  It is the same amount of money, and the widely beneficial impact that my tax dollars creates for people (including myself on more than one occasion) far exceeds any drawbacks.

In my opinion, asking someone to comply to my morality and judgement with money that has been given to them is pretty ridiculous.  I don't think that it should be considered in any way a prerequisite to assistance.

In my experience, limited as it may be, almost all addictions (chemical, habitual, electronic, etc...) are fueled by an underlying issue. I'm sure you know this already. As a counselor (who obviously genuinely cares cares) nobody is in a better situation to help the real issues than you are. Thank you for your service btw. I echo what Curtis said, kudos.

Is it something you talk with your clients about? I know very little about what you can/can't say, each case is different... I think you could get (maybe already have) a pretty good idea of who is gaming the system on purpose and who is just doing the best they know how.

RE the drug stigma: I've never used and never will. Personal history, long stories... anyway. But I know and am closely related to many "addicts" of all flavors. Some are lucky to be breathing, some never did any other drugs and just like to get high after work every day, some died, some are incarcerated. As a rule, they all started the same way. Weed. As a rule, they all have an underlying problem and are unwilling to admit it or seek assistance. The "gateway drug" label is real. My family is interesting. Long story short the substance is not addictive, but a lot of people are. Lots of folks are just as addicted to their cell phone and they are to pot. And in closing, I don't care if grown adults make their own choices responsibly.

Seriously though. Thank you for doing what you do, Javelin.

Kind of a lot of things to unpack in this...

While weed/THC may not be chemically addictive, it and any other mood altering substance, can most certainly be psychologically addictive. It isnt to say that the alteration may not fall within a realm of therapeutic, but that there are cases that could be identified as alteration outside of needed therapeutic bounds. One way could be the difference between "I want to feel normal", vs "I dont want to feel anything". 

Tough call.  Tough to establish a rigorous classification system to base a policy decision on. 

I know I might get flack for calling it addictive in any sort, but there is something to having a psychological compulsion for something. Take masturbation: people can become psychologically addicted to that, its just impractical to do it to a point that it interferes with your ability to function. Weed/THC yeah, you can be incapacitated by that. 

Part of mental health is determining someones incapacitation. Another part of that is identifying if that incapacitation is voluntary. Psychological addiction or compulsion is a difficult area, I am sure with your field you know more on addressing that Jav.  

*Disclaimer* never done weed outside of a contact high in college, not allowed to due to employment policy (work for Uncle Sam and he says its still not legal) and its REALLY not worth losing my job. Yes, they sent out VERY specific documents on that. (that said, I have never been drug tested)

Is there any chance of referring any of these problem individuals into a substance abuse program to get their self medicating under control?  A combination of aditional substance abuse therapy might be helpful in turning this situation back into a hand up.

I'm in a court ordered substance abuse program now, and it's been very helpful for me.  Several people in my classes are on government assistance and have every intention of using again as soon as no one is watching.  

Curtis said:

Toyman01 said:

I'm of the opinion that if they are obviously abusing the system to get cash to stay high, I'd report them and get them booted. 

I would approach it from this perspective. Most government and non-profit agencies have a limited number of people they can help. If someone abusing the system is taking up one of the few spaces, then someone that really needs and wants the help is going without. I would get the dead wood out of the system. 

My 2 cents. Take into consideration I could not and would not do your job for 10 times the money. I am not compassionate enough. 

Slippery slope.  Discerning who is dead wood and who genuinely needs help is difficult.  I would much rather have an abuser on my client list than a dead person who WAS on my client list.

The person that is abusing the system should get the ax and free up the resources for someone more deserving. If they die from it, so be it. 

Reread the last line in my post. This is why I'm not the person to have Javelin's job. Just the fact that he agonizies over these decisions mean he is infinitely more qualified than I am. 

Patrick said:

Also generally speaking, it costs a lot less from your buddy's neighbor's cousin than it does at a legit dispensary.  So using dispensary pricing to assume how much people are spending on it is not a good calculation.  
 

the cynic in me knows there are plenty of people that game the system for life, but the other side of the story is I bet it's a very small percentage of those actually getting assistance.  I wouldn't want to be in the position of being the judge, jury, and executioner of someone's mental health assistance.  

Based on my, ahem, research prices not as far off as you'd think once you consider the strength and quality. If I pay 2x as much for something with 2x the active ingredient........is it really more expensive? 

That also ignores the fact that once you have your card, you no longer have to worry about buying/carrying/storing/using/growing. And in Oklahoma, they have passed laws to help protect people against drug testing if they have a their MM card. 

As almost any recovering alcoholic will tell you--you've got to hit bottom before you begin to want to fix the problem. 

The people abusing the system will never hit bottom because their nice Uncle Sam is giving them money for weed.  Government = Enabler.

^this^  is true

Javelin said:

Correct. These programs have limited funds and space and I have clients that legitimately need the hand up being kept out by these people who are abusing the system so that they can abuse THC.

Seems to me you already know what you should do.

Tough question.

To anyone who thinks that weed is totally fabulous, harmless and spectacular, I would suggest you have either not spent much time around a real head, or you are one yourself.

Weed makes you stupid.  It is a legitimate source of comfort from chronic pain, and mental anguish, but it makes you stupid if you are never away from it.

Patrick said:

Replace MJ with cigarettes and nicotine vapes.  How do you feel now?  It's not much different.  If someone came in smelling like they just smoked a heater, you wouldn't think anything of it.  Society until very recently had us convinced that you get reefer madness, but cigarettes are cool.
 

 Most of us here are old enough that that was the message we received.  DARE officers came to school, told us how weed was a gateway drug, and we watched racecars with cigarettes and other tobacco ads on them while our tv icons all had a marlboro hanging out their mouth.  In reality, weed isn't anywhere near as bad as nicotine, but we're still conditioned that pot is bad.  Nevermind i think sucking anything into your lungs besides air is pretty not smart, but just think about it and how you're conditioned.  
 

people get hooked on everything.  You're addicted to buying cars(me too), some people get hooked on weed, some shoot heroin, some are addicted to food, and some lucky people can practice moderation in every facet of their lives.  
 

I use some plant based medication for pain, but don't use it enough to get high because I do not like altering my mental state.  I don't drink, and it took me until 37 to get over the stigma society forced down my throat about how horribe MJ is to even try a bite of a cookie that my buddy made for me when i was having horrible back pain and refusing to take narcotic pain killers.  I get it, I understand the stigma.  

It's interesting that you mention the stigma- I've just passed 40 and while I do like a booze, I've never gone plant based simply because of the connotation, and there's a 100% chance my QOL would improve on multiple levels. I'm right there. 

I have a very unorthodox take on this. Let me begin by stating: 1. I have chosen to be homeless over taking a handout. Pride, stubborness, whatever, I always felt that I was capable of making it work and that there were those that needed the help more. I know many people who undoubtedly deserve and depend on such assistance. At least once I should have sucked it up, but all turned out well. 2. I partake in said concentrates. This is legal where I am. I do so strictly recreationally, and for fun. 3. I am kind of immune to stigmas, having adopted a rather unconventional life consisting of a great many things that people will piously look down their noses at me for. If fitting into your community social group as a 'normal person' is important, my viewpoint may be somewhat amiss. 

Lets lay out some facts mixed with opinion: 

1. A gram of hash/shatter/wax/concentrate is about 30 bucks, and usually 80-96% canabinoids (active ingredient, including thc, cbd, and others). It is the most economical way to use THC. Similar to how 20$ in vodka goes further than 20$ in beer, this makes economic sense, particularly if you are poor. Being poor sucks, and while using drugs or booze may not help, it certainly makes the situation momentarily tolerable to many. Clearly being drunk or high all day is abuse. 

2. Assuming they use the assistance directly to procure drugs, what might they do if they still use without assistance? Would that better the community as a whole, or does doling out a few joints, even crack, while not ideal by any standard, serve the greater good by preventing crime? I personally think a person is free to do what they see fit with their body, but also will personally know the failings of self-abuse.

3. I will assert that habitual use, for many, perhaps most people, provides a sense of wellbeing. This helps those who need that ocassional sensation to feel right with a hostile world, but is a crutch to those who need to experince how bad things are in order to realize a change is needed. 

4. Many habitual users of THC use it as a harm-reduction strategy. Instead of painkillers, booze, or hard drugs, you can actually be a somewhat productive person in comparison, and nearly eliminate your risk of jail, overdose, and association with criminals. While it may seem, and be, somewhat stupid from the outside, it can be the best of a bad situation. 

5. Marijuana addiction is still laughed at and derided. ('Come back when youve sucked some dick for pot!' - half-baked) Many people have had the idea that 'its just a plant bro' normalized, and choose not to accept that it has become a functional impediment in their lives. While it may not be addictive in the conventional chemical sense, anything you become accustomed to can become an unhealthy addiction when it takes the place of responsablity. Being able to reach out and suggest it is even an issue, in a way they can hear, may be the first step.