Useless over-active customer service

I am still looking for a car for my wife. Sam's Club has a car buying program. Supposedly you submit your info and they email the dealership for you. In return you are supposed to get the price of the car. Over three I got back three canned emails asking me how my experience was with their business. I replied to each one that I don't know, I haven't had my price request answered yet. Yet another form canned email with no info. To that email I responded asking again for the Sam's Club member price or I'll go somewhere else. The reply I got back was that they don't have a Sam's Club member price or a Sam's Club program. Umm, what? So I finally called in and got the price over the phone. The discount was only $200 but that would cover some of the taxes at least. But thanks to the ineptitude of their internet sales person I think I'll keep looking. But now I know how seriously they want to know how my experience was!

I got the same thing with Suzuki's "Find A Car" thing on their website. Supposedly you enter your specs on a form and all the dealerships in the area will email you with price quotes. I even specified that I wanted to be contacted by email ONLY, though you have to give a phone number.

Out of 5 dealers I queried, 1 didn't reply at all, 3 called and didn't email, 1 emailed and called, but NONE included either a price quote or an indication that they had the car I wanted in stock.

About 100 years ago, I worked at a Honda dealership. There were a number of these programs that they participated in. The salesmen loved them. Club members (Credit Unions, Buyer's Clubs, etc) sent people in with special paperwork which would guarantee them a discount. There was almost always more profit in that discount price than there would be if the person just walked in and negotiated a price. As a bonus, these people almost never cross shopped other dealer's, as they believed that they were getting a special deal. They'd walk in, pick out a car and sign the papers.

When I bought my WRX, I got access to a VIP deal from someone pretty high up with Subaru NA. I checked out the VIP price with one dealer and went to another and just negotiated. I did much better on my own.

Very interesting Woody.

Got yet another email from them this morning. Still no price. Still might go look at the car, but I would hope that a dealership would be a little more interested in customer service right about now.

I'm emailing our Credit Union car buying service to see if they will cut me a deal. I tell them what car I want on Manheim's site, we agree on a profit amount for them, I go on my way.

Costco has a car buying program as well- usually, they have 2 or 3 cars spread across the parking lot and store entrance. The funny thing is that at the local store, the cars all have tags in the window reading "This location is not authorized to participate in this program."

Yeah, I had the same things happen when I decided to let FoMoCo "help me find my next car". Dealers that responded wanted to know how my buying experience went. I concluded that the whole computer based buying experience with Ford was completely messed up. If I wanted a car I was going to have to make at least 1 visit to the delaerships to find the car.

When I was looking for a MS3 I used mazdas find a car thing. I spec'd a white GT with no options. What did I get back? Any dealer within 100 miles sent me an email telling me they had that exact car. When I called to follow up they all told me "Yes, we carry the MS3 but we don't have any white ones or gt cars that aren't loaded. How about a red loaded model?"

I don't get why they even let you option the car on the form. No one pays any attention to anything but "model".

Two more emails today, one apologizing for not knowing about the Sam's Club pricing and offering to get me a price within 30 minutes. Right click, delete.

Woody wrote: There was almost always more profit in that discount price than there would be if the person just walked in and negotiated a price.

And right there's your problem. Why on earth should I have to negotiate the price on a brand new product? I don't do it on refridgerators. I don't do it when I buy paint. I don't do it when I buy potato chips. So why should I have to put myself through that nightmare on a new car? That system needs to be binned.

If I'm going to negotiate a car price, I'm going to do it on a used vehicle and avoid the 40% depreciation in the first few years.

ddavidv wrote:

Woody wrote: There was almost always more profit in that discount price than there would be if the person just walked in and negotiated a price.

And right there's your problem. Why on earth should I have to negotiate the price on a brand new product? I don't do it on refridgerators. I don't do it when I buy paint. I don't do it when I buy potato chips. So why should I have to put myself through that nightmare on a new car? That system needs to be binned. If I'm going to negotiate a car price, I'm going to do it on a used vehicle and avoid the 40% depreciation in the first few years.

=FTMFW

Hey detroit...go factory direct and youll make a killing. Sorry Dealers, your time has come. You are a forced middle man. Just like the auto ins. industry, your "legally" necessitated presence in my pocketbook has pissed off me and everyone else I know, and therfore end is near. Saturn was the closest to getting it right with a no haggle pricing structure. The only way you were going to get a discount was a rebate or some other incentive.

Agreed!! the dealer network is the stupidest sales mechanism possible. Having it legaly mandated is worse! Saturn had a good idea and it worked for a while but the product didn't contine to set itself apart.

When I bought my first brand new car, a '96 Accord, the dealer I went to showed me the BJ's Wholesale Club pricing sheet, then proceeded to make me a better deal. I still tell anyone who wants a Honda in the northeast to go to Mohawk Honda in Schenectady, NY. Bottom line though is the buying programs aren't going to be your best price. I'd email the internet sales manager of every dealer within 150 miles with your exact requirements and ask for a price within 48 hours, making it clear that you are going to buy from whoever has the best price at the end of the 48 hours. Someone will want to sell you a car.

littleturquoiseb wrote: Agreed!! the dealer network is the stupidest sales mechanism possible. Having it legaly mandated is worse! Saturn had a good idea and it worked for a while but the product didn't contine to set itself apart.

You know, I guess I never thought about it. Why can't we just go buy a car? Why should one person get a worse price on a car just because they don't have the stones to kick a sales manager in the nuts and walk out the door? I must say the biggest single reason I hate going to a car dealer is knowing I'm going to be screwed. It is all a game that I don't have time for. The fact that this dealer still screwed with me on getting a price drove this home (he has time to write an email but not to get me a price but can get a price in 30 minutes? BullE36 M3.).

I like how my friend's mom buys cars. She walks into the dealership, points to the car she wants and says she'll pay this for it. They usually counter and she will reply what she will pay. If they balk she walks out the door. Last time she had a salesman flat run to the end of the parking lot to stop her and get her back in the showroom. She bought the car for what she offered. My friend about crapped his pants because he wanted the car BAD, but his mom knew the game.

On a positive note my credit union car buying service says if I find a car on Manheim that I want they can buy it and we can work out a deal. The upside is I will know the price they pay and we can negotiate their profit. I like this idea.

The problem is, you all are thinking this "feature" is in place to help you. It's not. It's to collect your data for the sales monkeys and make it easier for them to do whatever it is they were going to do any way.

And another phone call and email today. This time offering to beat the price I was given over the phone, but still no price like I originally asked. Eh, not sure we want a Fit anyway.

4cylndrfury wrote: Saturn was the closest to getting it right with a no haggle pricing structure. The only way you were going to get a discount was a rebate or some other incentive.

But were Saturns really any cheaper than an equivalent car from a manufacturer with a traditional dealer sales system? No. Easier, yes; cheaper, not so much.

I don't know why people get in a swivet about buying new cars from a dealer. You need to know just two things: 1) what car you want, and 2) how much you're willing to pay for it. Everything else proceeds from that. No different from any other purchase decision.

Now, there are honest dealers and lying sacks of crap, but that's also true in any other transaction. But there's nothing inherently evil about the retail dealership idea - it's not like you go to the Whirlpool store to buy your refrigerator factory direct, either.

You'd be surprised how many big purchases are actually negotiable. Audio equipment from a non-big-box store, for example.

That said, here's my experience in the similar realm...

I was playing with the Ford configuration utility on their website, speccing out a cool Mustang. The usual, GT coupe with a 5-speed in red. Then the website told me that a car like the one I wanted was in stock at my local dealer: a blue convertible V6 automatic! Umm, yeah.

I was also toying with the idea of a new diesel pickup with "the current economy". So I used the Dodge website to request a quote. The salesman came back to me listing the MSRP. Umm, yeah. You're advertising $10,000 off MSRP for these things on the radio but you can't be bothered to give me any information at all for my query? So I bought a used Tundra privately instead

Of course, first I looked at some used Toyotas at a local dealer. Their prices were high. I found one I liked, then checked Autotrader to see what it would sell for in Denver, 200 miles away. Walked in to the dealership, they couldn't come within $4000 of the Denver prices because "that's what they had in it". I waved the bullE36 M3 flag because all of these guys are buying trucks from the same auction, laid the papers down on the table and said "I'd like to keep my business local, but tell me why I should buy from you". They couldn't give me a good answer, so I left and bought another truck for $4000 less. The thing that kills me is that the truck I was looking at sold later that day and I know the next buyer got fleeced on it.

I've only purchased one car new, and I got exactly what I wanted for a price I was willing to pay. But I've worked at a dealership as a lot monkey on the used car side, and I don't trust anyone in the business further than I can throw them. It's a game. It shouldn't be, but that's how it works. So I don't play. I tried with the Toyota, it simply proved that it was still a waste of time.

Duke wrote: But were Saturns really any cheaper than an equivalent car from a manufacturer with a traditional dealer sales system? No. Easier, yes; cheaper, not so much.

It's not about being cheaper. It's about knowing you didn't pay more for your Camry than your neighbor paid for his.

CrackMonkey wrote:

Duke wrote: But were Saturns really any cheaper than an equivalent car from a manufacturer with a traditional dealer sales system? No. Easier, yes; cheaper, not so much.

It's not about being cheaper. It's about knowing you didn't pay more for your Camry than your neighbor paid for his.

Bingo.

And the same reason Carmax is still in business. Sure they hound you some to buy the car, but I'll drive 30 miles to Carmax to look at a car before I'll walk across the street to a dealer because I know at Carmax if I don't want to buy the car, it is over and I can leave. Trying to leave a dealer lot after a test drive is like planning a prison escape.

Duke wrote: But were Saturns really any cheaper than an equivalent car from a manufacturer with a traditional dealer sales system? No. Easier, yes; cheaper, not so much.

Easier is an important factor, but not worrying about being screwed is almost, and in some cases, probably BETTER than getting (or trying to get)an extra 1K off. Id rather not have to worry about getting screwed. End of story.

That said, the "this is what I will pay" and then having the nerve to walk when you dont get it is a strategy I will probably employ whenever I do decide to purchase a car from a dealer, new or otherwise.

If the mfgrs go factory direct, in theory, the cars will be cheaper in the short term since theres no markup, but it will have a bigger impact long term:

1. Cheaper cars now means sell more now.
2. Sell more now means more money in pocket for detroit now.
3. since theres no lots to fill with excess inventory, you can convert your MFG to operate just in time - leaner MFG = less cost
4. Less cost means more profit
5. more profit means bigger competition in the industry (simple econ)
6. Competition is better for the buyer as it forces mfgrs to earn your business.

I know it sounds a littl head in the clouds, and wont happen in the next several decades, but in priciple is sound.

you may now poke holes in my theory...

skruffy wrote: When I was looking for a MS3 I used mazdas find a car thing. I spec'd a white GT with no options. What did I get back? Any dealer within 100 miles sent me an email telling me they had that exact car. When I called to follow up they all told me "Yes, we carry the MS3 but we don't have any white ones or gt cars that aren't loaded. How about a red loaded model?" I don't get why they even let you option the car on the form. No one pays any attention to anything but "model".

I tried to use it to find our MS3, but there are zero dealers at all within 100 miles, and that was as far as the tool was willing to look. (Maybe the limit was bigger, but there were zero within range, whatever it was)

I was able to use their site to look up individual dealers and find the exact one we wanted (Grey, Sport, no options) in their inventory though. It was just the automated part that I couldn't use.

People are paying MSRP for MINIs because the cars are worth it. The Saturn line - at least, when I spent any time looking at it - was an average car at best with an above-average buying experience.

Datsun1500 wrote: Carmax makes the most per vehicle than any other car dealer.

I could believe that. But I think the reason they sell is because the price is set. Maybe people are willing to pay more to skip the whole "game" of dealership buying? Is skipping over the whole hard sell game worth an extra grand or two? To some people it might be.

I on the other hand am going to try a new tactic. Using a borrowed Manheim account login I have been checking wholesale prices. I already have a broker who is willing to buy whatever car I want from the Manheim site, for a fee. I'm going to find a car I want locally and go look at it. I'm then going to tell the dealer that I'm going to buy the car through Manheim, but maybe we can make a deal. I'll pay the dealer the wholesale price he was asking for on Manheim, plus the fee I was going to pay the broker (half the fee actually, but how will they know). They will be in the spot of selling the car for the wholesale price to a broker, or selling it to me and making a few more bucks. I should still come out ahead even at wholesale "buy it now" pricing. Or they could tell me to pound sand, but it couldn't hurt to try.

I still have a hard time thinking people are happy having to go to the dealer at all...I know we do it a lot with dishwashers and breakfast cereal and stuff. But ditching the dealer all together cuts out the middle man (no hassle) and save you cash as well (no dealer markup).

Datsun1500 wrote: What I meant was people complained that MINI was overcharging and Saturn was "different"

That's because Saturn had a stated fixed-price policy.

MINI does not - they just happen to be in high demand - when demand tapers, the prices will fall.