What do you consider the working class?

alfadriver said:

Steve_Jones said:

In reply to alfadriver :

Frenchy floundered the thread, your bias towards a username is showing. 

Just pointing out that a simple single meal analogy for taxes and the benefits one gets from it isn't a good one.  For some of the reasons I suggest.  Nothing is equal, forcing it into a small analogy does not make it so.

I dumbed it down so some people here would understand it better than the complex system it is. Some people need that. 

Toyman01 + Sized and said:

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

In the 10 years I've spent on this forum, I can't think of anyone that has changed significantly. I can't think of anyone in my lifetime that has made a significant shift in their basic beliefs about how this country should be run.

 

Maybe people are stubborn on this board.  But I know people who have changed.  Even on other forums.

ShawnG said:

My home is an investment.

A mortgage is a loan on an appreciating asset, it's awful hard to lose money on dirt.

Actually, according to my assesment, my home is worth SFA, the land it's on is a different story.

I don't really understand why you're on about shelter cost. Everyone pays for shelter whether you rent or own. I pay less for shelter because I own my house.

Back to the tax thing. Ask Tesla why they moved to Texas. It's been proven over and over again, raising taxes doesn't increase revenue, it just re-distributes the taxpayers. There's a reason people move companies, money and assets to other countries. Heck, it's part of the reason the dollar value fluctuates. The government in my country is busy being very unfriendly to business through higher taxes and increased regulation. Guess what? Canada is closed for business, companies are pulling out of major projects and going elsewhere.

So, Frenchy, how much of your hard earned money is everyone else entitled to? How much would you feel is fair? 

 

Yes I'm working class Driving a school bus 12 hours a day. I was working class when the corporate Jet waited on the runway to take me and customers to look at products. 
    I was working class as I delivered and later sold frozen sandwiches. 
     
 I've done well in my life and paid whatever taxes were due ( and will continue throughout my life). The little the government uses to help the less fortunate doesn't bother me nearly as much as the hundreds of billions given to the Uber wealthy. 
  My suggestion for a more fair way to collect taxes does not mean an increase in taxes.  Or a decrease in taxes.  Just a way to collect taxes that cannot be gamed to benefit one group over another. 
     I honestly wish others came up with a method of collecting the cost of running a government that does not include an income tax.  
The 77,000 pages of the tax code plus legal precedent takes fairness out of the system.   

Steve_Jones said:

alfadriver said:

Steve_Jones said:

In reply to alfadriver :

Frenchy floundered the thread, your bias towards a username is showing. 

Just pointing out that a simple single meal analogy for taxes and the benefits one gets from it isn't a good one.  For some of the reasons I suggest.  Nothing is equal, forcing it into a small analogy does not make it so.

I dumbed it down so some people here would understand better than the complex system it is. Some people need that. 

As I saw it, dumbing it down can lead to the wrong conclusions.  Which is why I pointed it out.

frenchyd said:

     I honestly wish others came up with a method of collecting the cost of running a government that does not include an income tax.  
 

For the first 137 years, they did just that. The federal income tax was created in 1913.

DAmn, I was so happy that this thread stayed out of the fishing grounds for a while.  Oh well.  I've got lots of comments on some of what's been posted overnight, but I wont flounder further even to disprove with facts.

I think the thread hit it's high point with the let them eat cake analogy.  Good one.

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

Wasn't It Lincoln during the civil war that came up with income taxes?  

Changing the subject a little. Here's a thought on "belief synchronization" between two people (ie changing someone else's mind). 

Say there is a scale of 1-10 for each issue with 1 being fully disagree and 10 being fully agree. 

1. if two people speak and they are 1 - neither will learn anything or change. No matter the 'facts' or 'proof' or 'logic' presented in the argument. 

2. if two people speak and they are 10 - neither will learn anything or change. But they will have a good time bashing on 'the other'. 

Change and learning only happens when two people are in the middle. And it helps to be closer to 10. And it REALLY helps if the two people respect each other. 

SO if you want to change someone's mind: Start by finding the places you agree. Then earn their respect (one easy way is by truly listening to their ideas without instant dismissal). Then present them an idea that is slightly different to their own. You'll notice that if you did step #2 right that you may have changed your own mind a little as well. 

In reply to frenchyd :

The Civil War tax was allowed but all other income taxes were struck down by the Supreme Court. The constitutional amendment wasn't ratified until 1913. You will also note exemptions have been the norm since day one. 

In 1909 progressives in Congress again attached a provision for an income tax to a tariff bill. Conservatives, hoping to kill the idea for good, proposed a constitutional amendment enacting such a tax; they believed an amendment would never received ratification by three-fourths of the states. Much to their surprise, the amendment was ratified by one state legislature after another, and on February 25, 1913, with the certification by Secretary of State Philander C. Knox, the 16th amendment took effect. Yet in 1913, due to generous exemptions and deductions, less than 1 percent of the population paid income taxes at the rate of only 1 percent of net income.

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

Changing the subject a little. Here's a thought on "belief synchronization" between two people (ie changing someone else's mind)....

It also helps if you don't talk to them like they are either 1 or 10 (few really are) and talk to them as such (see sig line).

Of note: 1's and 10's tend to be way more vocal and tend to skew the perception.

aircooled said:

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

Changing the subject a little. Here's a thought on "belief synchronization" between two people (ie changing someone else's mind)....

It also helps if you don't talk to them like they are either 1 or 10 (few really are) and talk to them as such (see sig line).

Of note: 1's and 10's tend to be way more vocal and tend to skew the perception.

hahahaha awesome. I have signatures off, so I have never seen your signature before. I have to click on a person's profile to see it. Great work!

frenchyd said:

 The little the government uses to help the less fortunate doesn't bother me nearly as much as the hundreds of billions given to the Uber wealthy. 

You realize the government is not giving them anything right? Taking less is not the same as giving them money that's being taken from someone else. 

Sorry Adrian.

I contributed to the problem. I'm out.

My apologies.

mtn said:

RX Reven' said:

mtn said:

In reality, it looks like a very, very steep quarter-pipe.

Wearymicrobe shared that he's worth a little over 10 million...last time I checked, the top 1% had a net worth of 11.3 million so he's right on the number despite being worth many, many, many times more than the average person.

And I'm very jealous of wearymicrobes success. 

I am not.  He seems very stressed.

However, I am also not wearymicrobe, so that could easily just be my perception.  But based on my perception, if I were he I would have pulled the ripcord long ago.  Of course, he is shopping lightly used GT40s whereas I am shopping moderately used 20-year-old Boxsters.

I always enjoy a flounder.

My small business, which employs myself and two others, sends about $40-50,000 per year in income taxes for the three of us.  Federal sales tax I collect is somewhere around $20k, provincial tax around $30k.  So, roughly, $100,000 from my three person business.  

A few years ago, the feds flooded a skating ring on parliament hill that cost about $7,000,000, but nobody was really allowed to skate on it, and the weather was too warm anyway, so it was a total waste of about $6,900,000.

So, either 69 years of my contribution was hurled in the bucket, or the total annual contribution of 69 businesses like mine was burned in a pyre of waste.

When you are dealing in billions, a few million seems like a pittance...

Duke said:

mtn said:

RX Reven' said:

mtn said:

In reality, it looks like a very, very steep quarter-pipe.

Wearymicrobe shared that he's worth a little over 10 million...last time I checked, the top 1% had a net worth of 11.3 million so he's right on the number despite being worth many, many, many times more than the average person.

And I'm very jealous of wearymicrobes success. 

I am not.  He seems very stressed.

However, I am also not wearymicrobe, so that could easily just be my perception.  But based on my perception, if I were he I would have pulled the ripcord long ago.  Of course, he is shopping lightly used GT40s whereas I am shopping moderately used 20-year-old Boxsters.

Good point. 

Duke said:

mtn said:

RX Reven' said:

mtn said:

In reality, it looks like a very, very steep quarter-pipe.

Wearymicrobe shared that he's worth a little over 10 million...last time I checked, the top 1% had a net worth of 11.3 million so he's right on the number despite being worth many, many, many times more than the average person.

And I'm very jealous of wearymicrobes success. 

I am not.  He seems very stressed.

However, I am also not wearymicrobe, so that could easily just be my perception.  But based on my perception, if I were he I would have pulled the ripcord long ago.  Of course, he is shopping lightly used GT40s whereas I am shopping moderately used 20-year-old Boxsters.

 

Agreed. 

I could probably work 60-70 hour weeks, have lots of stress, and make 1/4 million+ a year. 

Instead, I work 30-35 hours a week and make half that. There are many things that are valuable to me. Money is not near the top of that list. 

ShawnG said:

frenchyd said:

mazdeuce - Seth said:

In reply to frenchyd :

That's a MASSIVELY regressive plan. If you're poor, you have to spend all the money you make, so everything is taxed. If you're welthy, you can afford to save, so you pay much less (percentage wise) in tax. There's a reason we do things the way we do. 

 

Every attempt to make a honestly progressive tax winds up doing just the opposite.  The richest 1% pay 40% of the taxes. But what that doesn't tell you is they have 90% of the wealth. Why don't they pay 90% of the taxes?  
77,000 pages of the tax code will show you. 

Because if you tax them that much, they will take their 90% and leave.

0% of 90% is still zero.

The financial contributions that some rich folks put back into society, not in the form of taxes can be incredible and plenty of them do it.

A couple of my customers bankroll addiction recovery centers.

Another funds a huge kids summer camp for kids who wouldn't be able to afford it.

Another paid for a wing of a children's hospice.

I sure as hell haven't been able to fund a children's hospice.

I've seen the work that these guys put in to be where they're at and I sure don't have the drive to do it. They're not doing it on 50 hours a week.

 

Shawn.  "If you tax them that much they will take their 90% and leave".  
     I believe you are confused ( or maybe just said it wrong? ). 
     I said those who make 90% of the wealth of this country should pay 90% of the taxes of this country. 
 Let's assume the wealth of this country is 100 trillion. The tax obligation is 2-3 Trillion?  
   Would you still leave?   Or accept that 2-3 Trillion as the cost of earning 100 trillion?  
     I didn't completely answer your earlier question while you answered mine.  I apologize, not trying to avoid it but I was interrupted by my schedule. Then forgot to come back. 
       You said your house is an investment. I accept that in a shorthand way.  
But the reason I asked was I'm trying to figure out what mine is.  
  I bought it not as an investment but because of the fun and magic I had as a kid on and around the lake.  
Since buying it, it has rewarded me with fun and magic plus the pleasure I got building it to my dreams.  I look around and marvel at my work, take pleasure in the ideas that worked better than planned. Grin at my flaws, and plan for the future. 
      Yet I cannot ignore the monetary value.  That's a sizable chunk of my net worth. But I have no way of knowing how much is due to what.  
That's why I asked. Is X the amount I assign to shelter needs?  Y The amount for Comfort?  Z The amount for other? 

Beer Baron said:

This thread floundered hard.

wow. Never saw that coming...

Welp, this has drifted ever more flounderatively to the point where we have an entire page with only one post that (glancingly) answers the poster's question, so we're gonna take a time out while everyone makes a quick visit over to the forum rules to refresh their memory.

Thanks.

Margie