What the berkeley happened to this country

mad_machine wrote: I have often said there needs to be a stable third party.. one that is centrist. I believe we may be on the verge of it happening. In that respect I encourage the Tea party. If they survive the next couple of elections intact, they should split the republican party down the middle, taking all the extremists with them. This would allow the republicans to become the party they used to be, before they wrapped themselves in the flag and church.

I'm hoping for the same thing. I'm typically a Democrat just because Republicans go so far out of their way to tick me off with "defense of marriage" and "how we gonna pay for it unless I want to bomb someone" crap. But the Democrats tick me off with the "we just didn't spend enough" crap. I sure hope someone comes along who will say "know what folks? We should pay the damn bills". Soon as someone says that they get my vote- Democrat, Republican, Tea, Green, Constitution or Garden Party.

We definitely need a strong third party, but I disagree about them needing to be "centrist."

Both Democrats and Republicans seem hell-bent on growing the size of the Federal deficit without regard for the future. They can't see past the next election. The only place they differ is on trivial social issues like abortion and gay rights, in which government has absolutely no business meddling.

Our third party needs to be "radical" in comparison, advocating the substantial dismantling of entitlement programs, imposing term limits, enacting major campaign finance reform, and establishing coherent national programs for energy and immigration, among others.

I am a realist, however, and I'm going outside now to look for flying pigs.

You somehow think the libertarian leaning tea party types are philsophically aligned with the big-government religious right? They represent the extreme ends of the party (aligned at the moment , but only in comparison to the left). There are some small Government religious right types... and they closely align themselves with the tea party. But if they dominate the discussion with social issues over economic ones, the tea party is doomed to failure because it would offer little advantage over today's GOP.

It's possible that the tea party may split the GOP (but more likely that they will take it over as the leftists did the Dems) but if they do, they will surely leave the religious right behind. There really is no "third" type of Republican (neo-cons being aligned pretty closely with big govt religious right types).

And if they did, I think they would make for a viable third party, representing the most common American political position.

A good number of Dems are Dems for exactly the same reason fast eddie states... willing to align with and support socialist economic policies just so they don't get aligned on what they see as the wrong side of social issues. (I generally take the other choice... economic issues being more critical than the meaningless sermoning that leads nowhere legislatively)

If they had a choice of capitalism without the social issues, I think a lot would take it ... which is why the Dems are so desperate to paint the tea party with social issues (and with the media's help have done a good job so far)... and why the tea party has to walk a very fine line in accepting support from their GOP philosophical opponents (on social issues) to defeat their DEM philosophical opponents (on economic issues)

The Beck rally did the tea party a lot of damage in that regard... I don't think they were aware of the extent of blatent religious overtones it would have when they agreed to support it.

Thread status:

Poised to overtake Quran Burning as worst thread ever

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Thread status: Poised to overtake Quran Burning as worst thread ever

Gee, every time I post a support of capitalism and individual freedoms, you post a "worst thread ever comment." I'm beginning to see a trend here...

wcelliot wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Thread status: Poised to overtake Quran Burning as worst thread ever

Gee, every time I post a support of capitalism and individual freedoms, you post a "worst thread ever comment." I'm beginning to see a trend here...

That is my first ever "Worst thread ever". I am also seeing a trend.

And what would that be? That somehow the addition of historical perspective, Constitutional law, and political philosophy into a bitch session somehow brings it to a lower intellectual, less interesting level?

Yeah, I'm not digging the "Worst Thread Ever" designations on this board. Worst thread ever would be something like if the 750hp Camaro Kid showing up and spending 20 pages saying he doesn't need an instructor. Civil political and religious debates are actually a moderately amusing read.

no matter how you look at it.. we are "living in interesting times" as the Chinese would say.

wcelliot wrote: And what would that be? That somehow the addition of historical perspective, Constitutional law, and political philosophy into a bitch session somehow brings it to a lower intellectual, less interesting level?

Well, no, not exactly.

More that any thread having anything to do with religion or politics will flounder to an eventual typing match between two, possibly three parties. The text of which will be nearly identical to the other threads regardless of the original subject.

Carry on.

This is actually an informed and interesting thread IMHO

1988RedT2 wrote: Our third party needs to be "radical" in comparison, advocating the substantial dismantling of entitlement programs, imposing term limits, enacting major campaign finance reform, and establishing coherent national programs for energy and immigration, among others. I am a realist, however, and I'm going outside now to look for flying pigs.

I agree COM - BERKLEYING - PLETELY!!!...theres wiggle room on immigration policy tho

1988RedT2 wrote: I am a realist, however, and I'm going outside now to look for flying pigs.

...Here, borrow my Binoculars, Ive been starring at the sky all day and my neck is sore

I hate debates on things on which I have no control. We'll all going to end up like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_qgVn-Op7Q

We started wiping asses and kissing away boo boos instead of letting people crash and burn. Protect the citizens became ambulance chasers. Personal responsibility became a word in the dictionary. We got too consumed with other peoples problems and forgot to look at our own.

It starts in the cradle. Kids are softies, they may as well live in a bubble. They grow up, through that process we make sure the precious ones always have this dream that they'll grow up to be astronauts. Hey the world needs janitors as well. So by the time they are 18 they feel this sense of entitlement, they've always had things their way and heaven help anyone that stands up to them. Another 4 years and we give them some meaningless degree and throw them in the workforce. Eventually some get to the point of power.

Btw, this isn't just a this country thing. It is a society thing. 100,000 years ago half of us would be the animals that got eaten by the big giant ones. Today, we bury our head in the sand like an ostrich and hope the big giant monster can't see us because we can't see them. Only, we forgot our shiny red arse is sticking out the ground. Survival of the fittest? Nope, survival of the one with the biggest lawyer.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: More that any thread having anything to do with religion or politics will flounder to an eventual typing match between two, possibly three parties. The text of which will be nearly identical to the other threads regardless of the original subject. Carry on.

Most subjects that deal with politics also deal with economics... and when those subjects are boiled down they will always split along philosophical lines... with individual liberty/free market capitalism on one side and collectivism/something other than free market capitalism on the other....

If you are forming a logical opinion, then where you sit on those underlying issues will determine where you sit on the specific one. And vice versa. Regardless of what semantics used or politcal party affiliation. One of my goals is to reveal (often to the opinion holder themselves) exactly where their opinion puts them philosophically.

What always surprises me is the opposition the individual liberty/free market capitalism side always gets in these discussion, especially since the majority of the participants are from the US which is uniquely founded on those principles. .. though I do particularly relish the irony of being called an "out of mainstream radical" when I promote them. ;-)

wcelliot wrote: You somehow think the libertarian leaning tea party types are philsophically aligned with the big-government religious right?

Yes. Yes I do.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Well, no, not exactly. More that any thread having anything to do with religion or politics will flounder to an eventual typing match between two, possibly three parties. The text of which will be nearly identical to the other threads regardless of the original subject. Carry on.

I can understand if you were making the point of 'not in my online car community...'

But instead it seems your point is its more of a foregone conclusion to any attempt to explain oneself honestly, or engage in an attempt at persuasive discussion.

Sure you see alot of the same things hashed out in these kinds of threads, but go skimming thru 4chan a little bit to get a real impression of "worst threads evar" by comparison. And even after wading thru that, I can't share your perceived pessimism that such discussion is pointless.

If nothing else, I learn something about the people here. ^_^

Okay, y'all are talking about a stable 3rd party, and as a Libertarian, I'd like to say, "HI, GUYS! WE'RE RIGHT HERE!".

Party line is for less spending, smaller government, and increased personal freedoms/responsibility. Yes, there's actually a party that wants you to keep your guns, stop taxing you (and your business) so much, but doesn't care if you're gay or smoke pot!

yes, but 'establishment' libertarians have very troubling foreign policy ideas to people with both democrat and republican leanings...

madmallard wrote: yes, but 'establishment' libertarians have very troubling foreign policy ideas to people with both democrat and republican leanings...

What's troubling about our goverment no longer mucking about in other countries' business?

It's not the American way!

Were savin' the world and spreading democracy here people!

But hey, we don't really need to be out there, that is what the UN is for..... cough.....

And libertarians have no problems with murdering your child. There are limits to personal freedom, and that limit is where you affect someone else. Otherwise, I think the libertarians have some good points.

I read a prediction a year ago. It said the Tea Party would not be a success in 2012, but, the ensuing total meltdown that results from 4 more years of what we have now would lead to a successful 2016 and rebuilding of America, with us pulling back to our own borders, telling the world to figger it out for themselves, rebuilding our country while the rest of the planet melts down without our giving them everything, then the US comes and helps the rest of the world rebuild. It's possible.

Dr. Hess wrote: And libertarians have no problems with murdering your child.

Where have you seen that? The general libertarian school of thought agrees with you... that individual rights end when you directly affect someone else and murder is definitely affecting someone else.

Most libertarians are okay with abortion being legal (even if they personally oppose it)... is that what you mean?

Bill

Dr. Hess wrote: rebuilding of America, with us pulling back to our own borders, telling the world to figger it out for themselves, rebuilding our country while the rest of the planet melts down without our giving them everything, then the US comes and helps the rest of the world rebuild. It's possible.

Didn't something similar to this happen, like, 50 years ago...?

Dr. Hess wrote: And libertarians have no problems with murdering your child.

That simply isn't true. I am a Civil Libertarian and have a bit of an issue with murdering even my own children, let alone someone else's.

Oh... I won't won't tell you there aren't times when I picture it in my mind... snapping the necks of the little buggers like twigs what with their wisecrackin' answers and their skateboards with creepy looking stickers. But NO! I restrain myself for the good of all mankind. And I'm scared of jail.