Whats with the shootings?

Had a guy here locally who told a neighbor that if his dogs crapped in his yard one more time, he'd shoot them. Dogs came and crapped on the lawn. Dude shot them. Neighbor came out, he shot him. Wife came out. He shot her. Cops came, he shot at him and had him pinned down. Another neighbor came out and shot the guy in the leg, when the guy turned around, cop killed him with AR15. Neighbor who shot the guy is being called a hero. He said he just did what needed to be done in order to protect against the loss of more lives.

Conquest351 wrote: Neighbor who shot the guy is being called a hero. He said he just did what needed to be done in order to protect against the loss of more lives.

Link?

rebelgtp wrote: A few months back there was a guy that attempted a shooting at a church. He killed one woman then he was shot and killed by someone attending the church while conceal carrying. People are going nuts all over the place and sadly they are taking it out on innocent people. It is getting to the point you really do need to walk around and have eyes in the back of your head. Both SWMBO and myself carry at all times these days and we have even discussed what to do in various situations including something like the theater shooting. We are lucky our range has an actual "practical" pistol range and regular shoots that allow for more than just the regular stand in a solid stance and punch holes in paper. Everyone stay safe.

I believe that was in St Charles County, MO.

In addition, any of the dorks around me are welcome to come shooting with me at no cost.

RE: shootings.

I'm not sure you can ever prevent them... but did anyone else notice how they end abruptly when guys with guns show up?

I wonder what we, as citizens could proactively do to protect ourselves? Hmmm.

Conquest351 wrote: Had a guy here locally who told a neighbor that if his dogs crapped in his yard one more time, he'd shoot them. Dogs came and crapped on the lawn. Dude shot them. Neighbor came out, he shot him. Wife came out. He shot her. Cops came, he shot at him and had him pinned down. Another neighbor came out and shot the guy in the leg, when the guy turned around, cop killed him with AR15. Neighbor who shot the guy is being called a hero. He said he just did what needed to be done in order to protect against the loss of more lives.

“A well armed populace is the best defense against tyranny.”

http://www.brownwoodtx.com/news/local/article_88bbad8a-d9e4-11e1-ac77-001a4bcf887a.html

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: RE: shootings. I'm not sure you can ever prevent them... but did anyone else notice how they end abruptly when guys with guns show up? I wonder what we, as citizens could proactively do to protect ourselves? Hmmm.

There are some VERY bad people in this world that kill others just for the fun of it. There are criminals that won't hesitate to kill because of "business." And then there are crazy motherberkeleyers. More citizens need to take responsibility for their own safety, instead of being sheep. Common sense and living in a nice area go a long way, but evil people are everywhere. The only effective way to reason with force is to have force of your own.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: RE: shootings. I'm not sure you can ever prevent them... but did anyone else notice how they end abruptly when guys with guns show up? I wonder what we, as citizens could proactively do to protect ourselves? Hmmm.

Yeah, but they tend to start with a guy showing up with a gun too, so it kind of evens out...except for all the people that get killed in between the start and the end.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: ....I wonder what we, as citizens could proactively do to protect ourselves? Hmmm.

Works for these guys:

....or maybe not. Let's face it. It's not the guns that will make us safe or unsafe, it will always be the people (the guns just act as a force multiplier). You can arm the "hood" as much as you want, but it still won't be safe... it's the people.

Otto Maddox wrote: ...except for all the people that get killed in between the start and the end.

What I'm worried about is the day when crazy dudes who exhibited all the signs but we can't do anything about because of 2nd Amendment start targeting children because they will be only one not shooting back.

By escalating the arms race, you only challenge your enemy to commit more drastic and radical acts.

aircooled wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: ....I wonder what we, as citizens could proactively do to protect ourselves? Hmmm.

Works for these guys: ....or maybe not. Let's face it. It's not the guns that will make us safe or unsafe, it will always be the people (the guns just act as a force multiplier). You can arm the "hood" as much as you want, but it still won't be safe... it's the people.

I've seen some of the not-so-lucky ones. Not a pretty sight. Or maybe it is depending on your feelings.

I'm interested in how the perp in this crime is now identified as a veteran in the headlines.

OK, so he served. He also left the service 12 years ago under a cloud. I will assume he has done other things since then.

Southern Poverty Law Center says he's been a musician in white power bands. Why isn't he called a musician?

I guess the reporters have to have a template.

JoeyM wrote:

Conquest351 wrote: Neighbor who shot the guy is being called a hero. He said he just did what needed to be done in order to protect against the loss of more lives.

Link?

Ask and ye shall receive...

http://www.ktxs.com/news/Three-People-Killed-in-Shooting-at-Early-R-V-Park/-/14769632/15822008/-/p8i01nz/-/index.html

PHeller wrote:

Conquest351 wrote: Had a guy here locally who told a neighbor that if his dogs crapped in his yard one more time, he'd shoot them. Dogs came and crapped on the lawn. Dude shot them. Neighbor came out, he shot him. Wife came out. He shot her. Cops came, he shot at him and had him pinned down. Another neighbor came out and shot the guy in the leg, when the guy turned around, cop killed him with AR15. Neighbor who shot the guy is being called a hero. He said he just did what needed to be done in order to protect against the loss of more lives.

“A well armed populace is the best defense against tyranny.” http://www.brownwoodtx.com/news/local/article_88bbad8a-d9e4-11e1-ac77-001a4bcf887a.html

LOL You found the extremely vague first article on it. We deal with the local LEOs all the time here, so what happened was basically what I said up there. The guy was shooting at the officer with a 30-06 hunting rifle and was shooting above the officer because he was using a scope. Consistantly 1-2" high on all the bullet holes from what I'm hearing. Anyway, the officer wouldn't be around anymore if the resident hadn't gotten involved, that's for sure.

I keep deleting posts because I know I'm just setting this thread up for fish flavored disaster.

BoxheadTim wrote: That said, coming from a continent where a place of worship has been considered a sanctuary for a over a thousand years - - I find the thoughts of someone violating that sanctity abhorrent.

So your saying that's worse than people being murdered elswhere?

While living in Berlin, that seemed to be a much safer city to live in than even Sacramento, where I haven't particularly felt unsafe. More petty theft, but less violent crime. This is a place where people aren't allowed to carry guns.

People can't carry guns in England though, and they seem to have way more problems with violent crime (although perpetrators still tend not to be armed).

So, it seems like guns are neither the problem nor the solution. So what are the Germans doing better than us that the Brits are doing worse?

Well, there was plenty of police force in Berlin. They are a strong presence that reacts quickly and is armed. Also lots of surveillance cameras in high-density places like train stations. They have lots of incentive and high quality education to put people to work, along with good social programs for the unemployed and underemployed.

I really don't know the answer. I just don't buy the argument that "There are lots of people out there who are just inherently bad, and the only way to stop them is for people to carry guns so they can shoot them."

In reply to Beer Baron:

It is cause if you shout orders at a German he will automatically obey.

N Sperlo wrote: I believe that was in St Charles County, MO. In addition, any of the dorks around me are welcome to come shooting with me at no cost.

Same here if any of you on this board are near me and wish to go up to the range I would gladly take you. If you have never fired anything in your life and want to learn I will teach you. No cost, no strings just fun and maybe a little learning.

As mentioned a firearm does not guarantee that you will be safe. In one of these events your first priorty should be to get you and yours out of the line of fire and call for help. If you cannot escape find cover and hide to hope help comes. The last thing you will do is actively engage the shooter and this should be done as a last resort or if you are in a position to stop him with reasonable safety to yourself and to keep others from being harmed. Forget about charging from across a room or shooting from a long distance unless trained. You will have to be CLOSE to stop the threat. If you have a gun and plan to use it then plan on ending the shooter do not count that they will be scared off by random return fire. If randomly shooting back while trying to escape was your plan DON'T. You will more than likely injure other innocents trying to escape. If you do not have a gun and are forced to fight improvise a weapon. While it is not wise to "bring a knife to a gun fight" it is better than being unarmed if you are going on the attack. Do not believe that these events cannot or will not happen where you live. They can happen anywhere or anytime all it takes is one nut and your life can turn into a nightmare. As recent events have proven there are no "safe havens" anymore. One of the reasons Oregon allows you to carry in schools is to help keep children safe. In some countries where children at school have become targets they have armed and trained the teachers to allow them to protect students. It may suprise you to know that there has been a similar proposition made for doing the same here in the states.

I am in no way saying every person here should go out and purchase a gun and start carrying it. Honestly some people are not wired for the responsibility or the potential stress and can end up getting themselves or others hurt. What I am saying is that we should not try and take away the tools of those that take on this responsibility and help to keep everyone safe. That is exactly what they are doing when carrying responsibly and many in law enforcement will tell you the same thing. The police cannot be everywhere at all times and at times it comes down to the peoples ability to protect themselves.

In reply to rebelgtp:

Well said.

I too will extend an invitation to shoot hand guns, rifles or shotguns with anyone wanting to visit me in the Flint area.

Beer Baron wrote: People can't carry guns in England though, and they seem to have way more problems with violent crime (although perpetrators still tend not to be armed).

Actually, if you are not a farmer, you cannot even own a gun in the UK. You can own a shotgun if you are a farmer with a vermin problem and that's pretty much it. The UK olympic shooters have problems to even train, that's how severe the legislation is.

Nonetheless it's not that hard to buy illegal guns, but the penalties are very severe if you get caught. Doesn't stop the wannabe gangsters in certain areas to own them. And use them, too.

Beer Baron wrote: Well, there was plenty of police force in Berlin. They are a strong presence that reacts quickly and is armed. Also lots of surveillance cameras in high-density places like train stations.

Actually the UK has much more CCTV than Germany, even though studies suggest that it doesn't help with crime reduction.

You mentioned education, the education in the UK is much closer to what we see here in the US compared to Germany. A lot of the UK state schools are mediocre at best, companies don't want to train people because they're afraid of other companies poaching their trained staff, so they poach them themselves. Both (wealth) inequality and social mobility in the UK are again closer to the US than to Germany (higher inequality and less social mobility).

BoxheadTim wrote: You mentioned education, the education in the UK is much closer to what we see here in the US compared to Germany. A lot of the UK state schools are mediocre at best, companies don't want to train people because they're afraid of other companies poaching their trained staff, so they poach them themselves. Both (wealth) inequality and social mobility in the UK are again closer to the US than to Germany (higher inequality and less social mobility).

Yes. I am inclined to say these things go a lot farther towards preventing violent crime than any police or personal force measures. Force can help control violence one it is already present, but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I was incredibly impressed that Germany basically pays people to go to trade schools that then essentially guarantee solid employment afterwards.

What I'm worried about is this:

Lets say I've got a neighbor who is a maligned, angry, disgruntled, and paranoid. He's also got an arsenal. He's got a clean record, and for most of his life has been a good neighbor, but lately he's been listening to a bit too much AM Radio and thinks that his community is becoming too diverse.

He regularly comes over to say hello, but lately has been going off on rants about his Latino neighbor, and the black guy across the street. He also thinks the Muslim family down the block are terrorists.

One of the neighbors called the cops on his barking dog last week, and he came to my house, pounded on my door, and accused me of calling the cops. I calmed him down, assuring him that I was not home that evening, and told him that his dogs do get a bit loud some times. He was clearly very frustrated, and redirected his anger at his Latino neighbor. I watched to see if he would go to the Latino family house, but he did not. Just stormed across the street and slammed his front door.

I'm concerned about the safety of my ethnicly diverse neighbors. My good neighbor has turned crazy, and I'm afraid calling the police will result in more confrontations.

What do I do?

Tell my neighbors to arm themselves? Tell my neighbors to leave town? Tell my neighbors to wear bullet proof vests? Tell my neighbors to hide their children? Tell my neighbors to shoot his dogs?

This is the problem in America. We've got CRAZIES who get all fired about nothing, get angry, and go off and kill people. More and more people believe that their 2nd Amendment rights allows them the ability to dole out vigilante justice. They believe that they can protect their community from terrorist Arabs, drug dealing Latinos, and gangster Blacks all by themselves, and that they, the crazies, do NOTHING wrong. These same angry neighbors shoot up city council and school board meetings when BIG GOVERNMENT tells them they need to chill out. They shoot up family gatherings of ex-wives and kill their kids in fits of rage.These angry neighbors shoot up Sihk Temples and movie theaters. My fictitious neighbor could go out and buy MORE guns and MORE ammunition. He could buy MORE loud/barking and aggressive dogs, and when any of my neighbor call the police, ITS THE POLICE who risk confronting this man and his arsenal.

In reply to PHeller:

If I was in that situation I would talk to him. If he is coming to you as described he must feel comfortable talking to you for one reason or another. This gives you the ability to defuse the situation peacefully. Maybe he has lost his job do to out sourcing or the hiring of cheap mexican labor and that is causing issues. Maybe he is having family or financial troubles and that is causing the anger issues. Maybe the reason he has issues with these neighbors is because they have an issue with him and you have not noticed that. Could be the dog is a family pet that brings joy to his kids and he is at work all day so he doesn't know it is barking. It could also be he is just mentally unbalanced and does require professional help that is harder to come by in this country without being ostracized.

Now for sake of argument we will say the guy is just nuts as can be and is as violent as you have said. What are worst case scenario emergency response times for your area? Would you prefer if no one could legally purchase a fire arm to defend themselves? If the guy is as off the nut as described I am sure he could dig up something on the blackmarket or use other legal options to carry out the crime. People have been killing each other for a very long time and have found tons of ways to do it. Ice T was recently asked in an interview if he supported. Gun control and he said no because even if there were no guns people would find other means to do the job. Removing the weapons in a legal fashion only removes them from the hands of the lawabiding citizens and their ability to defend themselves. If the guy is dead set on hurting his neighbors he could use a car and run them down, use easily obtained poisons, blunt objects, a kitchen knife, a bow and arrow, beating them with his hands, building a bomb from common chemicals, this list can go on and on.

I would much rather rely on being able to defend myself and those around me than waiting for someone else to come to my aid. This has much to do with my upbringing I am sure. My neighbors house was on fire and I ran in to get them out and start putting out the fire while someone else called the fire dept. I had the fire out before they showed and had gotten the occupants out to safety. I grew up around firearms and received my first rifle when I was about 6. My cousins were not and are the only cowboys I know that are scared to death of guns. They were raised to think of guns as evil things that kill people. I was raised to think of guns as tools that people use and sometimes those people have evil in their hearts. I honestly believe that there are some people out there that should not have firearms, and they are not all bad or crazy. The problem is the idea of removing these tools from the hands of those that use them responsibly because there is the potential of evil to be done by a minority of gun owners.

So in this fictitious case, I should suggest my other peaceful neighbors to buy guns in case the guy across the street goes on a rampage? Doesn't that just create more problems?

Maybe the guy across the street doesn't believe has any problems. Maybe he believes that the world around him is out to get him. It's not my business to prod into his life problems anymore than its my business to ask the police to check up on him once in awhile.

Can he kill people other ways? Sure. But lets face it, the gun is the most efficient way of killing lots of people quickly outside of a bomb, and when you look at the number of people dying in the US to home made bombs, it's non-existent. Did Holmes utilize bombs, yes, would he have used a bomb had he not had access to guns? Maybe.

Mass murders seem to like guns more knives, cars, and bombs. Why? I don't know, but if the crazies had less access to guns, at least they'd have to work harder to do their killing.