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Dave M (Forum Supporter)
Dave M (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
7/17/20 1:45 p.m.
aircooled said:

Also, something interesting going in Sweden.  As I am sure most are aware they have been "open" the whole time and it appears as if they are taking a serious down trend recently (deaths are on a down trend also).  I am curious if this has some association with what is going on in the NY area.  Maybe they reaching some sort of preliminary saturation quazi-herd immunity point.

Just trying to be hopeful of what might be coming for some areas of the US that are spiking.

(obligatory semi-crap data note)

No I just think that in both places we can now apply the best current science - COVID is likely airborne, so you need to wear masks, stay distanced and wash frequently.  NYC has very high mask compliance after all the deaths, and Scandinavians listen to their public health officials.

Mask usage is a political issue only in the US! Everywhere else it's just SOP.  This is no different from 1918, btw.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
7/17/20 2:17 p.m.

I guess the interesting comparison is NY to CA (more specifically LA).  I would say the "political" / mask situation is similar in both areas, and yet LA is getting hammered right now.   LA did not get hit that hard initially so does not have the huge initial infection / spread NY did and may not be as cautious because of that but it is hard to say how much of an effect that is having.  That is why I am left with thinking this might just be the natural trend of the thing (and yes, I am sure lack of mask / precautions will make it different / worse).

Do you have a source for the Sweds wearing, or requiring wearing of masks?  The only thing I am see is they do not mandate it (maybe very recently?)  From June 8th.

https://www.thelocal.se/20200608/why-isnt-sweden-asking-people-to-wear-face-masks

Wearing a face mask is obligatory in Germany and France on public transport, for example, while in Sweden it is not recommended even while people continue to visit restaurants, bars and shops.

From June 30th showing examples of active resistance to masks:

https://www.thelocal.se/20200630/coughs-and-racial-slurs-swedens-foreign-residents-reveal-abuse-for-wearing-face-masks

Of course, there is also the rather natural Nordic tendency to naturally socially distance, which might help a bit also.

So, that leaves us with the Swedish numbers diving (currently) while apparently doing little to stop the spread.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
7/17/20 6:10 p.m.

Found some more info on mask wearing in Europe (I put the title in as text).  In checking the number of cases in the countries listed below, they all appear to have a similar curve (generally flat and low after peak, Sweden far more recently than the others of course and hasn't gotten to low yet). 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1114375/wearing-a-face-mask-outside-in-european-countries/

How often have you worn a face mask outside your home to protect yourself or others from coronavirus (COVID-19)?

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
7/20/20 7:28 a.m.

In reply to aircooled :

Since this has been ignored for a few days I'll be the sucker to ask. If transmission rates are similar across all these countries, wouldn't this indicate that mask wearing really isnt having an actual effect? Or at the least so minimal that the hand wringing and shaming that has been going on might be wrong? Or am I interpreting this differently?

AAZCD (Forum Supporter)
AAZCD (Forum Supporter) Dork
7/20/20 7:53 a.m.

In reply to bobzilla :

Masks - the kind that don't seal around the face and are generally made of improvised materials - do not provide direct protection from COVID-19, but do reduce the aerosols. The virus can pass around and through most of the casually worn face coverings, but they do reduce the distance and volume that is spread. For the general public it gives them reassurance that 'we are doing something' and that they have some measure of control over their exposure. From a mental health standpoint, that seems to be important.

Wash your hands, don't touch your face.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
7/20/20 8:04 a.m.

That didn't really answer the question, just told me to wear a mask to make people feel better. 

bobzilla said:

That didn't really answer the question, just told me to wear a mask to make people feel better. 

Much like the media?

 

rob_lewis
rob_lewis UltraDork
7/20/20 8:15 a.m.

In reply to bobzilla :

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Just from a quick glance at this, the relative number of cases seem to be worse in the United States, especially compared to some of the European countries.  So, I don't think the transmission rates are the same. I think the mask rules are to help reduce passing, but won't prevent it.  People can only handle being indoors for so long.  Both from a financial and mental standpoint.  So, if they need/want to get out, wearing a mask will help.

As a resident, I'm keeping an eye on Texas.  We were one of the first to start opening our doors in stages.  Unfortunately, we've seen a substantial increase in cases.  The governor issued a mandatory mask requirement statewide on July 2nd.  Since the incubation period takes some time to develop, I would assume we will see a decrease in cases starting this week if masks are effective. If we don't, then the masks don't help.

EDIT: The bigger question is, if there was irrefutable proof, would you accept it?

-Rob

AAZCD (Forum Supporter)
AAZCD (Forum Supporter) Dork
7/20/20 8:15 a.m.
Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) said:
bobzilla said:

That didn't really answer the question, just told me to wear a mask to make people feel better. 

Much like the media?

 

Ha ha... He wanted a direct answer to his question. For more ambiguous information,   >  click here  <.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
7/20/20 8:27 a.m.
bobzilla said:

In reply to aircooled :

Since this has been ignored for a few days I'll be the sucker to ask. If transmission rates are similar across all these countries, wouldn't this indicate that mask wearing really isnt having an actual effect? Or at the least so minimal that the hand wringing and shaming that has been going on might be wrong? Or am I interpreting this differently?

I think the Scandinavian countries in general tend to somewhat social distance themselves already at least that was the impression I got when I lived in Denmark for a bit. Also I know Denmark shut down before they had any cases (I believe Norway and Finland shut down early too) so they can keep the pandemic under control via testing and contract tracing due to the fact they never had many cases.

AAZCD (Forum Supporter)
AAZCD (Forum Supporter) Dork
7/20/20 8:37 a.m.
93EXCivic said:
bobzilla said:

In reply to aircooled :

Since this has been ignored for a few days I'll be the sucker to ask. If transmission rates are similar across all these countries, wouldn't this indicate that mask wearing really isnt having an actual effect? Or at the least so minimal that the hand wringing and shaming that has been going on might be wrong? Or am I interpreting this differently?

I think the Scandinavian countries in general tend to somewhat social distance themselves already at least that was the impression I got when I lived in Denmark for a bit. Also I know Denmark shut down before they had any cases (I believe Norway and Finland shut down early too) so they can keep the pandemic under control via testing and contract tracing due to the fact they never had many cases.

In Scandinavian countries, do they spend most of their day inside enclosed structures with central air conditioning? When I lived in Germany (6 years total) there was almost no central air and most people opened their windows in the summer. FL, TX, CA, ... People remaining indoors with closed windows and recirculated air may be a big factor. Putting an N95 mask over that AC vent may be a lot more effective than wearing a mask as you walk down the street.

*Note: I have no objection to wearing a mask in public and do wear them when shopping and when in close contact with the public. I imagine that all the other mask wearers are smiling at me as we pass.

mtn (Forum Supporter)
mtn (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/20/20 8:39 a.m.
bobzilla said:

In reply to aircooled :

Since this has been ignored for a few days I'll be the sucker to ask. If transmission rates are similar across all these countries, wouldn't this indicate that mask wearing really isnt having an actual effect? Or at the least so minimal that the hand wringing and shaming that has been going on might be wrong? Or am I interpreting this differently?


Good question to ask, but I'm not sure that the graph above will tell you much, even when you go searching for the information and validation one way or the other to the question that you asked. Why? Because it is too late, and the populations at this point are different. Spain, Italy, France, were all ravaged by it early. UK was as well, but not to the same extent. Border lockdowns went into place early throughout much of Europe, different stay at home orders, different populations and population densities, etc.

Think of it as if you did your first autocross run and it was 60 seconds, then in the grid, you changed the tire pressure in all tires, turned off traction control, changed the settings on your Konis, and sprayed your tires with water to cool them. Your second run is 55 seconds... Which one of those changes helped? Did any hurt? No way of knowing, you can't isolate the change. Oh, and even though the course may be the same, one country may be running on asphalt and the other on concrete... Maybe not the best example, but I'm just saying I don't think that your question is easily answered using the data above.

 

Ultimately though, the science on it is pretty clear: 

 

And I have to get working on my actual work, so no sources, but the other thing that is being observed is that if nothing else, they definitely lessen the viral load. What that means is that people may still get sick if everyone wears a mask, but there will be less people getting sick, and the people that do get sick, are getting a milder case. That is especially important for the frontline health workers, and others that can't avoid close contact with others, like teachers and their families (if we get back into schools this fall).

All of that above paragraph I have read from reputable sources. The following is my own conjecture: I'd also imagine that we see less of the ongoing [terrifying, to me] issues with less viral load, like the Kawasaki Disease-like symptoms, heart damage, lung damage, and brain damage.

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/20/20 10:40 a.m.

In reply to AAZCD (Forum Supporter) :

The problem with complaining about ambiguous information is that is all we have right now. More definitive data would require extensive studies and there simply hasn't been time for anything like that.  So instead, the medical officials have to take the information they have and make the best decisions they can.

These are scientists. They don't like to "guess" but the current situation has forced them to make them.  So yes - there will be a lot of "may" and "reduced" type words in the recommendations. And those recommendations are going to change as they gather more information.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/20/20 12:12 p.m.

I get a week of mandatory vacation while we wait and see if my chest cold isn't.

 

Full-body coughing fits and it feels like I have been (deleted)ing a Loofa.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
7/20/20 12:19 p.m.
bobzilla said:

In reply to aircooled :

Since this has been ignored for a few days I'll be the sucker to ask. If transmission rates are similar across all these countries, wouldn't this indicate that mask wearing really isnt having an actual effect? Or at the least so minimal that the hand wringing and shaming that has been going on might be wrong? Or am I interpreting this differently?

Yeah, I was a bit surprised no one jumped on that, I am guessing some where trying to figure out my "angle" on it. That would be: just providing information I find, whatever it might say. Thank you for being the brave one. It IS a very good question to ask. 

I think the better way to look at it is:  Masks are (almost certainly) not a total solution.

The recent large public gatherings for example, even with total mask compliance, I am sure resulted in transmission (based on proximity and time of exposure as shown in study linked previously).  Without masks (or in the cases where that was true) I am sure the transmission rates where much higher.

To use the AutoX example:  Assuming you race within the rules, you always want to use the rules as much as possible in you favor to give you the best chance.  Will making that one change to your car assure you will win?  No, but it gives you a bit more of an edge and a slightly better chance.  Certainly no reason not to make as many of those mods as you can, to give you the best advantage possible.  A "mask" might be adjusting your camber. or a motor swap, I don't know (!?!?).

As noted, different situations, crap data, all make very definitive declarations on these thing essentially impossible.

Also of note a "mask" can be something of wildly varying effectiveness.  Clearly the mask setups they use in hospitals are very effective, some you see out in public, not nearly as much.

Side note:  It looks like Sweden's numbers are continuing their downward slope.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
7/20/20 12:29 p.m.
kazoospec said:
Snowdoggie said:
Huan said:

In reply to aircooled :

I think most of us already have immunity to corona, cos it's often can be without any symptoms 

Disinformation from somebody who has never posted here before. Imagine that. 

Yes, but "cos it's often can be without any symptoms"  gives it the instant credibility of 1000 posts.  wink

It should be BLATANTLY  obvious that post counts on ANY forum have no direct correlation with intelligence or credibility. 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
7/20/20 12:33 p.m.
z31maniac said:

It should be BLATANTLY  obvious that post counts on ANY forum have no direct correlation with intelligence or credibility. 

You should know... Mr big brain!  I will go with what you said cheeky

Besides, we WAY "outrank" him!!

 

z31maniac has posted 16685 times in the forums.

aircooled has posted 15363 times in the forums.

Snowdoggie has posted 340 times in the forums.

 

(to be clear: meant to be funny, but I do agree.... and tend to agree with Snowdoggies concerns...shades of grey...)

STM317
STM317 UberDork
7/21/20 8:54 a.m.

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/21/20 9:34 a.m.

In reply to STM317 :

wondering if folks in here will 'resist' those stats as much as they resist the covid ones (by pointing out all the reasons a stat may be wrong or misleading).

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
7/21/20 9:43 a.m.
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to STM317 :

wondering if folks in here will 'resist' those stats as much as they resist the covid ones (by pointing out all the reasons a stat may be wrong or misleading).

that's just uncalled for. 

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/21/20 9:50 a.m.

In reply to bobzilla :

cheeky

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
7/21/20 10:00 a.m.

In reply to STM317 :

Boy, talk about a study of the blindingly obvious...

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
7/21/20 10:01 a.m.
aircooled said:
z31maniac said:

It should be BLATANTLY  obvious that post counts on ANY forum have no direct correlation with intelligence or credibility. 

You should know... Mr big brain!  I will go with what you said cheeky

Besides, we WAY "outrank" him!!

 

z31maniac has posted 16685 times in the forums.

aircooled has posted 15363 times in the forums.

Snowdoggie has posted 340 times in the forums.

 

(to be clear: meant to be funny, but I do agree.... and tend to agree with Snowdoggies concerns...shades of grey...)

I don't spend enough time on this board. Probably because I work more that 40 hours a week and since I am an "essential worker" I didn't get any time off during the shutdown. I won't get any time off during the next shutdown, and when the world ends I will probably be following the four horses of the Apocalypse with a shovel and a trashcan and getting overtime for it. Between work and being a caretaker for my elderly mother, I really haven't had an entire day off in years. 

It really sucks not having time to finish a car for the model car contest. The Corvair still isn't painted yet. 

rob_lewis
rob_lewis UltraDork
7/21/20 11:05 a.m.

An interesting read:

Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds

-Rob

STM317
STM317 UberDork
7/21/20 11:43 a.m.
Streetwiseguy said:

In reply to STM317 :

Boy, talk about a study of the blindingly obvious...

I was actually surprised that the numbers were as low as they are! But yeah, being poor sucks in all kinds of ways.

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