When is it time to panic

I've been out and about a fair amount lately. 

Here are a few observations from my point of view.

9% of the population are anti everything. They aren't going to wear a mask, even if you were spraying virus directly into their faces with a hose. 

50% of the population seems to have a berkeley it attitude. They don't really care about the virus and they aren't worried about it. They wear masks if and when they have to, but only then. They don't care about news updates or vaccine production. They probably went out to dinner last night. They post funny virus memes on FB. They have moved on.

30% are doing what they are told. They wear their masks and follow the news for more updates. They are only seen at the grocery store and Lowes/Depot. Mostly they are staying home. They are concerned about it and waiting on a vaccine with great anticipation. 

10% still seem to be terrified. They are maintaining a sense of panic. They wear masks most of the time. They post all kinds of misinformation on FB and are constantly telling people to WEAR A MASK, even if you already have one on. They are very nervous and fidgety when seen in public. This group comes from all age groups. My guess is they will be wearing masks for the rest of their lives and their vitamin and supplement shelf at home looks like a GNC store. 

The last 1% are still hoping the virus will wipe out 75% of the population of earth. 

In reply to Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) :

I can agree with those percentages. I see myself in the top 41%

z31maniac said:

93EXCivic said:

z31maniac said:

93EXCivic said:

I am increasing questioning whether I want to keep living in this country.

It's a lot harder to permanently move to most countries you would actually want to live in than most people think. 

Although I do think it would be fun to live in one of the cities where we have other offices, just for a few years. Specifically, Barcelona or Montevideo. 

I could do the UK really easily because of having a British birth certificate. Not 100% sure that is that much better...

No way would I pick the UK over the US. But not really a fair comparison, most people don't already have foreign birth certificate. 

Go look up what it takes to be a citizen of Switzerland. Although, I admit, that's probably the most extreme example in the world. 

Yeah. I know it isn't easy to move to most places but for me I can have a few options. I honestly would love to live in England for a least a bit. I lived in Oxford for 3.5 months when I was younger. Why wouldn't you pick the UK over US out of curiousity?

Brexit throws a bit of a monkey wrench in that for me.

aircooled said:

Lots of people trying to figure stuff out and talk things through in a confusing and stressful time when even the experts cannot provide solid definitive answers.

If you want a solid definitive answer, "experts" are not the place to go.  Anybody who promises a solid definitive answer is a quack or a snake oil salesman.  An "expert" will recognize that... oh, hell, I'll just quote the disclaimer from Yarchive:

Medical information can get outdated quickly, and some of these articles are a decade old. Thus, in addition to the usual cautions (this web page is not your doctor, and has no legal obligation to provide accurate, personalized medical advice; plus the usual caveats about every article on this website), please notice the dates on these articles. Chemistry, physics, and basic physiology don't change; but explanations of diseases often do, usually in small ways but sometimes in large ways. The best available treatments for diseases change even more quickly, as new drugs and procedures become available (or become discredited).

We're learning more and more about the virus as we have had more time for study.  We didn't win WWII by using the same weapons and tactics as we used when we entered, this is no different.

Pretty much all freedoms are contingent on not affecting others freedoms (e.g. freedom of religion yes, freedom to persecute or punish others for not being part of your religion, no).

*nod*

I would have agreed with Toyman's assessment until last weekend.  I was in southern VA and witnessed <5% mask usage (under a state mask mandate).  I think that 50% and 30% were combined into a 'berkeley it' group.  And since there is really no enforcement or peer pressure to wear a mask there, none of them do.

aircooled said:

Lots of people trying to figure stuff out and talk things through in a confusing and stressful time when even the experts cannot provide solid definitive answers.

Some who don't discuss things in the most "gentle" way.  Also a few people who like to drop in and do there best to disrupt things. 

Pretty much all freedoms are contingent on not affecting others freedoms (e.g. freedom of religion yes, freedom to persecute or punish others for not being part of your religion, no).

Serious question:

If the experts can't provide definitive answers, what is to be gained here? 

Spreading anti-government/conspiracy type stuff? Because that seems to be about all that's happened for months.

93EXCivic said:

Yeah. I know it isn't easy to move to most places but for me I can have a few options. I honestly would love to live in England for a least a bit. I lived in Oxford for 3.5 months when I was younger. Why wouldn't you pick the UK over US out of curiousity?

Brexit throws a bit of a monkey wrench in that for me.

Weather, politics, COL, etc. 

This isn't pointed at any person here. It IS pointed to a person I know in the real world, but they're not on this board.

Early on in this, I heard people saying that they weren't going to wear a mask because that would be living their life in fear. I've noticed a resurgence of that, oddly, of people who were formerly ardent supporters of the President that are now bashing him because of his statement that masks are patriotic. 

Can someone explain to me how wearing a mask to help prevent yourself from either (and both) catching a spreading a virus is living in fear... what do we do that isn't living in fear?

• How is wearing a mask living in fear?
• In that case, is wearing a seatbelt living in fear? I've never gotten into an accident in my driving life, knock on wood - do you recommend that I not put it on? Or you not put it on if you're riding with me?
• Is grabbing a hot pan using an oven mitt living in fear? If not, is it because of the almost certain burn instead of the very uncertain risk of catching/spreading the virus?
• If the above is so, where does the risk factor reach a point that something is no longer living in fear?

And some data points for my comparisons, sourced from Wikipedia:

• 486k burn injuries a year, and 3,275 fire/smoke deaths in the US
• The highest number of deaths in the US in a year was 55k in 1972; the highest per capita was in 1937 with 29 per 100k people. 2018 had 37k deaths
• 131k deaths in the US from Covid in less than 7 months, or 39.6 per 100k people

Again, this isn't pointed at anyone here. It is a legitimate question that I am trying to understand where they're coming from, because it doesn't make sense to me. 

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

Some people just have a contrary nature.

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

I would say they are coming from the point of you doing whatever you want and them doing whatever they want.

It's not about the mask or the seatbelt. 

Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) said:

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

I would say they are coming from the point of you doing whatever you want and them doing whatever they want.

It's not about the mask or the seatbelt. 

 

So no fear is involved at all? Are they just completely ignoring or not understanding their societal responsibilities? 

In reply to ProDarwin :

As time passes, more and more of the 30% are going to move to the 50%. People are getting weary of the constant fear mongering of the media and government and they are just going to ignore them. 

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

No, they don't care. At the root of this, this is still a country of individuals. 

They don't feel the government has the right or the responsibility to tell them they have to wear a seatbelt or a mask.

Some of them will choose not wear either as a statement. 

Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) said:

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

No, they don't care. At the root of this, this is still a country of individuals. 

They don't feel the government has the right or the responsibility to tell them they have to wear a seatbelt or a mask.

Some of them will choose not wear either as a statement. 

 

 

flippant comment alert.. but man.. I sure don't like it when the government tells gatorade they can't use ethylene glycol in their drinks..  It's sweet and it won't freeze which is a bonus in minnesota.

mtn (Forum Supporter) said:

So no fear is involved at all? Are they just completely ignoring or not understanding their societal responsibilities? 

I think it's denial- refusal to admit they have to change whatever "nice" life they had beforehand because the virus is forcing them to realize how isolated they are.

A frind of a friend is like this. They're a project manager and lead for IT on a natural gas project in Mississippi and he's positive. They won't answer if they're wearing masks, and were fighting with us about how they were taking their temperature as if it was going to change a positive antibody screen and symptom list.

Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) said:

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

No, they don't care. At the root of this, this is still a country of individuals. 

They don't feel the government has the right or the responsibility to tell them they have to wear a seatbelt or a mask.

Some of them will choose not wear either as a statement. 

 

 

This is what I see and hear out here in the red west. I wear a seatbelt, and a helmet when I'm on two wheels. I think it's bogus that I'm "forced" to do either, but I choose to because the data is uncontested, and I've had more than a few downs on the bikes where the helmet saved my bacon. The data is pretty convincing that masks limit the spread of covid, and I have no objection to them. But, coupled with the experts giving contradictory advise over the past 6 months (as we learn more) and the government mandating individual behavior, well, around here that's just begging for loud and proud defiance.
Then throw in the scare and hype that was going around before this thing even hit our shores, "exponential growth" "killer virus" and all the garbage reporting that has become normal, and now it's mid July, and most folks here (southern Utah) have yet to know anyone who even tested positive let alone had severe symptoms and it's starting to look like the man is just reaching farther and farther into our personal affairs over some media hype that has yet to materialize. Then throw in the still falling mortality rate, and all the other "propaganda" and from my perspective it's pretty easy to see why so many folks are showing defiance to what should be a simple common sense issue.
This was politicized from the start, and both major parties (and their media outlets) are to blame. There is too much power and money floating around this thing to have expected otherwise, but it still makes my blood boil. It should not be a political issue, but it has become the defining one for 2020. A wise man once said, "This some bullE36 M3."

z31maniac said:

93EXCivic said:

Yeah. I know it isn't easy to move to most places but for me I can have a few options. I honestly would love to live in England for a least a bit. I lived in Oxford for 3.5 months when I was younger. Why wouldn't you pick the UK over US out of curiousity?

Brexit throws a bit of a monkey wrench in that for me.

Weather, politics, COL, etc. 

The cost of living is one of two things that really holds me back (also friends and family).

Personally I prefer British weather to large parts of the US. It isn't so hot in the summer or cold in the winter that you can't go outside. Yes it rains a lot but it is basically drizzle all the time and I don't mind that because I will gladly go outside in that versus here where it is big thunderstorms.

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

Flippant picture alert.. but man..

I wear the best helmet I can afford when I ride one of my motorcycles. I wear a KN95 mask when I go out, which is rarely. 

It's not just the virus. There are too many crazies running around out there. Too many angry people. Maybe it's the political climate. I'm too damned old to deal with the madness. 

I will be staying at home until all this blows over. Moving out to the desert and becoming a hermit sounds very attractive right now if I could talk the Mrs into it. 

93EXCivic said:

z31maniac said:

93EXCivic said:

Yeah. I know it isn't easy to move to most places but for me I can have a few options. I honestly would love to live in England for a least a bit. I lived in Oxford for 3.5 months when I was younger. Why wouldn't you pick the UK over US out of curiousity?

Brexit throws a bit of a monkey wrench in that for me.

Weather, politics, COL, etc. 

The cost of living is one of two things that really holds me back (also friends and family).

Personally I prefer British weather to large parts of the US. It isn't so hot in the summer or cold in the winter that you can't go outside. Yes it rains a lot but it is basically drizzle all the time and I don't mind that because I will gladly go outside in that versus here where it is big thunderstorms.

COL is a big chunk of what keeps me in OK. Sure I can make more money moving to Austin/Nashville or other tech spot, but I'm not going to make twice as much to make up for the difference in housing costs. I like that my mortgage is less than 17% of my gross pay (which doesn't even include what the lady throws in). I'm not paying 45% gross pay for the same in Austin. 

Or deal with some horrendous commute just to live in the burbs, when here I can have a 30 minute commute and live on 10 acres.

I'll take July/August and January/February, for the other pretty nice 8 months out of the year. 

Rebellion for rebellion sake. If you're telling me something, and I don't like you, then what you're saying is false. We live in a world where basically every leader has a negative sentiment against them that's close, if not larger than, the positive sentiment for them. We vote against people. People want to believe that 9/11 was an inside job, that Pearl Harbor was ignored on purpose, that "the man" is always out to get you and hide something from you, where breaking into a military base in the desert sounds like a fun time. I can't even count the number of times someone says, regarding a pretty settled issue, something like "well more stuff came out and now...", or even worse the "I think more stuff will come out..." and they are really referring to some Facebook post or Instagram nonsense as if historians are really rewriting the books now based on this revelation. People want to believe that they have some monopoly on the truth, that they themselves and a small band are the arbiters, and the rest are SHEEP (almost always in all caps). They also, to be fair, were told to fear Zika, Ebola, H1N1, Swine flu, Avian Flu, SARS (the first one) and others that I can't remember, which all amounted to basically nothing. We've become a country of contrarians. It wasn't necessarily better, but JFK did all manner of terrible things with women, things Trump would never get away with, and the media covered it all up for him to bolster the office. These days you get headlines picking apart every word of every leader as if it was an essay to be graded. I'm not defending Trump, he says a lot of stupid things.

For me and my house, we will worship the Lord. That means showing love to all people at all times. A mask is inconvenient and gives me a headache sometimes. I still wear one every day for basically eight hours and I have totally survived so far. I probably saved my wife's life twice, not catching it after being exposed because one or both of us were wearing masks.

I work on data. Can it be falsified? Sure, but it's aggregate data. You can't tell me that someone got every coroner in every hospital in every state to start lying about the same thing all at once. The data says here in SC this thing is getting worse. Hospital bed usage is way too high and climbing, fatalities are still coming, and percent positive tests are still rising. Either it's a conspiracy of a few hundred thousand people all working together undetected in complete unity, or it's a pandemic that kills a lot of people.

Someone put it better than I can: https://www.keithmathison.org/post/covid-christians-the-civil-magistrate?fbclid=IwAR2i8oHNbSW150ts5vW4L2qpkK9Y678QHFISfDqe7jq4y0jvlVP-Q2y7Wo4

Also, I know I've posted on them before here, but Occam's and Hanlon's razors are always applied here.

Edit:

It doesn't help that leaders stink with respect to personal responsibility. I told a few students in Trail Life that one of the most important part of leadership is admitting fault, and correcting. I asked the kids how many times they heard Obama or Trump say "yeah sorry, I messed up here". We need to do that as leaders of our homes, churches, etc. If our leaders did that, we would probably trust them a lot more. They haven't really earned any trust.

z31maniac said:

93EXCivic said:

z31maniac said:

93EXCivic said:

Yeah. I know it isn't easy to move to most places but for me I can have a few options. I honestly would love to live in England for a least a bit. I lived in Oxford for 3.5 months when I was younger. Why wouldn't you pick the UK over US out of curiousity?

Brexit throws a bit of a monkey wrench in that for me.

Weather, politics, COL, etc. 

The cost of living is one of two things that really holds me back (also friends and family).

Personally I prefer British weather to large parts of the US. It isn't so hot in the summer or cold in the winter that you can't go outside. Yes it rains a lot but it is basically drizzle all the time and I don't mind that because I will gladly go outside in that versus here where it is big thunderstorms.

COL is a big chunk of what keeps me in OK. Sure I can make more money moving to Austin/Nashville or other tech spot, but I'm not going to make twice as much to make up for the difference in housing costs. I like that my mortgage is less than 17% of my gross pay (which doesn't even include what the lady throws in). I'm not paying 45% gross pay for the same in Austin. 
 

Yeah that is why I am in Huntsville still. I don't love really big cities but Huntsville has developed nicely into a city with all the things I like to do.

But there are some things that come with living in certain places that I'd consider paying the extra for.