When stupid attacks! - steer by wire

No it wasn't. The point is, when the reports of steer by wire failures and deaths start filtering in (dare I raise the specter of the Toyota unintended acceleration recall? ) will there be an internal memo somewhere outlining an acceptable percentage of injuries and/or deaths associated with those failures?

Osterkraut wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote: You miss the point. A $20,000 (or even $200,000) car won't have anywhere near the same level of redundancy that a billion dollar airplane does.

You missed the point. Even a $200,000 car is 0.02% of the value of a B-2. Do you think the B-2's systems are five thousand times better?

With that $1 billion, they build in a lot of redundancy. Same as the space shuttle which, IIRC, had 3 separate backups for EVERY onboard system.

For $200,000 you can't build in that sort of redundancy. If so, then why is there NO redundant system for 'drive by wire' throttles? (again raises the Totota recall specter). If that beeyotch breaks, you are screwed till it's fixed. And yes about two or three times a week I get cars here with failed electronic throttle bodies.

Curmudgeon wrote:

Osterkraut wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote: You miss the point. A $20,000 (or even $200,000) car won't have anywhere near the same level of redundancy that a billion dollar airplane does.

You missed the point. Even a $200,000 car is 0.02% of the value of a B-2. Do you think the B-2's systems are five thousand times better?

With that $1 billion, they build in a lot of redundancy. Same as the space shuttle which, IIRC, had 3 separate backups for EVERY onboard system.

Five. Thousand. Times. Better? No way. Especially when you realize that was 20 years ago!

I'm not involved in the Nissan design, but triple-redundant systems are pretty standard, so I would hypothesize they'll do similar. Hell, it'll save more lives than the rare failure costs, what with the ability to control slides and the like.

There isn't a redundant system for throttle-by-wire because when it breaks, the car simply coasts to a stop... it doesn't NEED one in current usage.

Its funny you mention the Space Shuttle, with your thinking we'd have never left the ground. You're standing in the way of my ability to get in a nap while driving to work, dammit.

I don't understand this board's constant complaining about terrible drivers occurring right next to dismissal of technology that will make those drivers safer.

In the push to take the driver out of the equation (see google autonomous car) systems need to be developed. The mass transit of the future is trains of cars on automated roadways with limited access. So systems relevant to going, turning, and stopping will be fully automated at some point. It's not the end of the world however. Think Millenium Falcon on wheels. I'll keep my 75 Vette for fun weekend drives, the Gti for track fun, and deal with whatever comes down the pike when it gets here. I for one look forward to my future DD that I don't have to care about.

vwcorvette wrote: I'll keep my 75 Vette for fun weekend drives, the Gti for track fun, and deal with whatever comes down the pike when it gets here. I for one look forward to my future DD that I don't have to care about.

+1

Osterkraut wrote: I don't understand this board's constant complaining about terrible drivers occurring right next to dismissal of technology that will make those drivers safer.

Now THAT one I can answer! Have you seen any new car commercials lately? (The 2013 Accord is especially bad) They tout all of these new "safety features", which are admittedly great technology, as ways that will save the driver. The driver that's always looking away, adjusting the nav, texting, or otherwise being a complete numbtard. The continual advance of safety tech in new cars is making these idiot drivers worse because they really think the car will always save their dumb ass.

Also, judging by tech inspections at the autocross and Street Survival Schools, exactly 5% of cars will see any maintenance, and as such, all of these systems will fail catastrophically because their idiot owners have never done anything to them and the car's poor PC doesn't have the programming to deal with 4 bald, mis-matched, different sized tires riding on blown shocks with brakes using the backing plates as pads while the engine struggles on a 17 year old WalMart tractor battery with five wires added to it for "amps" trying to power 10 dead sensors, a plugged cat, and fouled plugs on a sludged-up engine...

Osterkraut wrote:

novaderrik wrote: and will the redundant backup systems on this magical new "steer by wire" setup do the same thing?

Oh I dunno, what's redundant mean?

in the case of most mass produced cars once they reach the consumer, it would mean "corrodes to the point of uselessness by the time it's needed".

Didn't Ford already get rid of a steering column in the last Escape model? That's what the salesman told me at least.

Javelin wrote:

Osterkraut wrote: I don't understand this board's constant complaining about terrible drivers occurring right next to dismissal of technology that will make those drivers safer.

Now THAT one I can answer! Have you seen any new car commercials lately? (The 2013 Accord is especially bad) They tout all of these new "safety features", which are admittedly great technology, as ways that will save the driver. The driver that's *always* looking away, adjusting the nav, texting, or otherwise being a complete numbtard. The continual advance of safety tech in new cars is making these idiot drivers *worse* because they really think the car will always save their dumb ass. Also, judging by tech inspections at the autocross and Street Survival Schools, exactly 5% of cars will see *any* maintenance, and as such, all of these systems will fail catastrophically because their idiot owners have never done anything to them and the car's poor PC doesn't have the programming to deal with 4 bald, mis-matched, different sized tires riding on blown shocks with brakes using the backing plates as pads while the engine struggles on a 17 year old WalMart tractor battery with five wires added to it for "amps" trying to power 10 dead sensors, a plugged cat, and fouled plugs on a sludged-up engine...

But that won't happen til they're at least out of warranty!

vwcorvette wrote: In the push to take the driver out of the equation (see google autonomous car) systems need to be developed. The mass transit of the future is trains of cars on automated roadways with limited access. So systems relevant to going, turning, and stopping will be fully automated at some point. It's not the end of the world however. Think Millenium Falcon on wheels. I'll keep my 75 Vette for fun weekend drives, the Gti for track fun, and deal with whatever comes down the pike when it gets here. I for one look forward to my future DD that I don't have to care about.

Yeah, wait till they ban meat controlled vehicles entirely. Hope you got lots of private land for a track for your Vette and GTi.

Osterkraut wrote: I'm not involved in the Nissan design, but triple-redundant systems are pretty standard, so I would hypothesize they'll do similar. Hell, it'll save more lives than the rare failure costs, what with the ability to control slides and the like.

There's your 'Pinto memo' right there. 'Yeah, it'll bust and kill a few people but look how many it will save!'.

Osterkraut wrote: There isn't a redundant system for throttle-by-wire because when it breaks, the car simply coasts to a stop... it doesn't NEED one in current usage.

Yeah. Tell that to the nice folks I tow in and zap them for lotsa money to fix that fancypants electronic throttle. When yours barfs with your whole family in the car and you are either freezing/roasting on the side of the highway getting ready to have your wallet lightened by $750 or so instead of the $25 throttle cable everything used to use, think of this exchange and don't complain.

Osterkraut wrote: Its funny you mention the Space Shuttle, with your thinking we'd have never left the ground. You're standing in the way of my ability to get in a nap while driving to work, dammit.

Screw your nap. You need to be paying attention to what's around you; what the fighter pilots call SA, situational awareness. See below. The shuttle was built by folks who had a dream to go to space but realized nothing is perfect if built by humans, so they added redundancy to make sure it could be controlled in the event of a system failure.

Osterkraut wrote: I don't understand this board's constant complaining about terrible drivers occurring right next to dismissal of technology that will make those drivers safer.

That's the whole problem with really terrible drivers now. These fools expect technology to bail them out of anything, so they pay no attention to their driving and make my butthole slam shut with a resounding 'bang' at least twice a day.

Curmudgeon wrote:

Osterkraut wrote: I'm not involved in the Nissan design, but triple-redundant systems are pretty standard, so I would hypothesize they'll do similar. Hell, it'll save more lives than the rare failure costs, what with the ability to control slides and the like.

There's your 'Pinto memo' right there. 'Yeah, it'll bust and kill a few people but look how many it will save!'.

Seatbelts kill a few people a year. I don't see people up in arms about them...

Curmudgeon wrote:

Osterkraut wrote: There isn't a redundant system for throttle-by-wire because when it breaks, the car simply coasts to a stop... it doesn't NEED one in current usage.

Yeah. Tell that to the nice folks I tow in and zap them for lotsa money to fix that fancypants electronic throttle. When yours barfs with your whole family in the car and you are either freezing/roasting on the side of the highway getting ready to have your wallet lightened by $750 or so instead of the $25 throttle cable everything used to use, think of this exchange and don't complain.

That is not a critical situation. As for price, are we to snub ABS because the modules are expensive? Get real.

Curmudgeon wrote:

Osterkraut wrote: Its funny you mention the Space Shuttle, with your thinking we'd have never left the ground. You're standing in the way of my ability to get in a nap while driving to work, dammit.

Screw your nap. You need to be paying attention to what's around you; what the fighter pilots call SA, situational awareness. See below. The shuttle was built by folks who had a dream to go to space but realized nothing is perfect if built by humans, so they added redundancy to make sure it could be controlled in the event of a system failure.

Wait wait, humans can build a system, realize it's not perfect, and add redundancy?! Does this only apply to spacecraft, or can obviously inferior automotive engineers design such a system too?

Oh, not just fighter pilots call it "SA," heavy aircrews have "SA" too, though good luck finding a crewdog that busts out that acronym unless mocking a student or in jest... we've also got a little thing called "controlled crew rest" which is...napping.

Curmudgeon wrote:

Osterkraut wrote: I don't understand this board's constant complaining about terrible drivers occurring right next to dismissal of technology that will make those drivers safer.

That's the whole problem with really terrible drivers now. These fools expect technology to bail them out of anything, so they pay no attention to their driving and make my butthole slam shut with a resounding 'bang' at least twice a day.

And you're standing in the way of technology removing those fools from the loop.

Technology will never remove them, they can only be removed through attrition. So I will now support electric steering since it will kill more of those idiots, thus making my drive to work safer.

Curmudgeon wrote: Technology will never remove them, they can only be removed through attrition. So I will now support electric steering since it will kill more of those idiots, thus making my drive to work safer.

Horray! And may my nap not be disturbed while I run you over!

Osterkraut wrote: That is not a critical situation. As for price, are we to snub ABS because the modules are expensive? Get real.

finally.. someone that gets it.. not only are ABS modules expensive, but they make people think they don't need to pay as much attention while they are behind the wheel.

novaderrik wrote:

Osterkraut wrote: That is not a critical situation. As for price, are we to snub ABS because the modules are expensive? Get real.

finally.. someone that gets it.. not only are ABS modules expensive, but they make people think they don't need to pay as much attention while they are behind the wheel.

Sarcasm is really hard to detect over the internet, I hope. Who the hell thinks if they've got ABS you don't need to pay as much attention? Hell, such a large percentage of the driving population can't even remember not having ABS, they're not all "herp derp my car has ABS, brb reading a book." Do you think people see LED tail-lights and think they can get closer because of the shortened time to illumination?

Oh no, LED tail-lights have circuit boards, without directly-connected filaments we're all going to dieeeeee. Wait, the lights themselves can fail! We need to remove all lights, because if you're not straining to see the car in front of you, you're not paying as much attention! Rubber tires allow for less concern about grip in the turns, making drivers so lazy. Also you just can't get the feel for the road on pneumatic tires! Back to wagon wheels! Distributors? No thanks, if I'm not manually advancing the timing I might find myself doing other things, like drinking my tonics! I prefer to be one with my machine, thank you very much. Also, they're very expensive, and if they fail you're stuck waiting for a team of horses to haul you back to mechanics, where he'll charge you $13! Four wheels? No thank you, three's for me, without the constant fear of tipping over you just can't be a good driver!

Now that's sarcasm.

You know, I'm all for this change. I agree that my commute should be handled by my car, not me. I want it to take me from my driveway to the parking space at work, and this technology is the only way that will happen. This technology is key to removing the loose nut from behind the wheel.

But you know what else? None of this will matter. NONE. We'll never get to that point. After the first car with this electronic steering crashes and kills somebody, the lawyers and laymen will be shouting "unintended steering change" when some idiot on a cell phone not paying attention was the real cause.

We have a seven page thread about religion going relatively civilly, and this degrades after 2-3? Wow. We're... weird.

I think I need to clarify. It's not the technology that I truly mistrust, it's the dumbasses who will be using that technology and can't be bothered with maintaining it.

BIIIGGG difference with ABS: it's in the background, patiently waiting for the Wal Martian to do something REALLY stupid and forget what little they learned in Drivers' Ed when they could hear above the noise of them masticating their Slim Jims and gulping Rock Stars. If the ABS pukes, there's still the original juice brakes to stop them from crashing into my attention paying ass.

OTOH, when they ignore the blinking 'SERVICE ELECTRONIC STEERING' light for 6 months and it then seizes in a tight right turn they just HAD to make to grab a handful of sausage biscuits from Mickey D's and they run over me or my kid, well that's a different story.

tuna55 wrote: We have a seven page thread about religion going relatively civilly, and this degrades after 2-3? Wow. We're... weird.

Dude, this is like golf. It's not a matter of life and death; it's much more important than that.

I don't understand why anyone would want a self driving car at all. It is just stupid.

In reply to 93EXCivic:

Because some of us have to commute a long way, early in the morning. This time could be used for sleeping or actual working instead of piloting. My commute is not for enjoyment, it is purgatory between sweet bed comfort and the workday.

This went downhill fast......also, sobe.....if your commute is so bad that you want to sleep while driving, for berkeleys sake, move closer.

In other news, how am I getting "ABS brake" insurance discounts for both my cars....neither have it....