Before I decide to kill my wife's '05 New Beetle with copious amounts of fire, I am at least trying to fix it first.
The transmission shifts hard after it warms up. The upshifts aren't too bad (feels sporty!) but the downshifts are jarring. The dealer claims that a dent in the transmission pan damaged the valve body. I can't see this happening without putting a hole in the pan. I found a TSB for the same transmission in the Passat exhibiting the same shift habits:
http://www.justanswer.com/questions/1vgmi-2007-passat-wagon-6-speed
It seems VW updated the valve body and software on the transmission. The dealer wants to replace the valve body for $1900 but I think it might be worth a shot to update the TCM with the newer software. I haven't crawled under the car myself yet but I'm doing that tonight to survey the damage. If it is a good knock then maybe I'll believe the valve body got damaged, but if it is just a scrape I'm going to go after VOA for a warranty repair even though the car is just outside it's warranty period.
The A/T is an 09G TF-60SN.
1: What engine? (Email me the vin)
2: How far outside of warranty is it?
BTB warranty is 4/50 but Drivetrain is 5/60 IF it has more than 60K you are ehscrewed...
Do yourself a quick favor, go sit in the driver seat, place the key in the ignition depress the gas pedal to 100% throttle, turn the ignition to the on position but do not crank the car, keep your foot on the gas for 10-15 seconds then release.
Drive a ten mile mixed road drive and see if the car still shifts hard on the return trip.
Also leave the car at the dealer overnight and have them replace the pan and fluid.
I have seen a few of them do some odd crap but almost 100% are fluid related.
On the full electronic 09g a few of the full control solenoids going bad can cause high pressure on components that shouldn't not be engaged (safety feature). I'm assuming that it has no codes thrown and the dealer has electrically tested each solenoid?
In reply to John Brown:
What does your throttle procedure do? Just curious.
Paul_VR6 wrote:
On the full electronic 09g a few of the full control solenoids going bad can cause high pressure on components that shouldn't not be engaged (safety feature). I'm assuming that it has no codes thrown and the dealer has electrically tested each solenoid?
No codes, no lights. The dealer didn't test anything, he looked at the dent in the pan and said "it's gonna need a new valvebody". I have a warranty through my credit union for the car, but the dealer said that since there is physical damage to the pan it wouldn't be covered. I don't think the dent in the pan has jack squat to do with the transmission crapping out. This model transmission is lambasted across the VW boards for dying at about 60k (right as the VW warranty ends).
I reset the TCM and the TPS, that made things a little better but it is still shifting hard.
I can get a rebuilt valvebody for $500, but I doubt this transmission is anything like the AOD I did a shift kit on.
The car has 71k on it, so I'm screwed on a VOA claim.
Helterskelter wrote:
In reply to John Brown:
What does your throttle procedure do? Just curious.
Supposedly a back door to reset the transmission control sequence to OE. The electronic units have an adaptive learn process that will pick up bad habits.
slefain wrote:
Paul_VR6 wrote:
On the full electronic 09g a few of the full control solenoids going bad can cause high pressure on components that shouldn't not be engaged (safety feature). I'm assuming that it has no codes thrown and the dealer has electrically tested each solenoid?
No codes, no lights. The dealer didn't test anything, he looked at the dent in the pan and said "it's gonna need a new valvebody". I have a warranty through my credit union for the car, but the dealer said that since there is physical damage to the pan it wouldn't be covered. I don't think the dent in the pan has jack squat to do with the transmission crapping out. This model transmission is lambasted across the VW boards for dying at about 60k (right as the VW warranty ends).
I reset the TCM and the TPS, that made things a little better but it is still shifting hard.
I can get a rebuilt valvebody for $500, but I doubt this transmission is anything like the AOD I did a shift kit on.
Replacing it is easy, refilling it after replacing it is a bit trickier
John Brown wrote:
slefain wrote:
Paul_VR6 wrote:
On the full electronic 09g a few of the full control solenoids going bad can cause high pressure on components that shouldn't not be engaged (safety feature). I'm assuming that it has no codes thrown and the dealer has electrically tested each solenoid?
No codes, no lights. The dealer didn't test anything, he looked at the dent in the pan and said "it's gonna need a new valvebody". I have a warranty through my credit union for the car, but the dealer said that since there is physical damage to the pan it wouldn't be covered. I don't think the dent in the pan has jack squat to do with the transmission crapping out. This model transmission is lambasted across the VW boards for dying at about 60k (right as the VW warranty ends).
I reset the TCM and the TPS, that made things a little better but it is still shifting hard.
I can get a rebuilt valvebody for $500, but I doubt this transmission is anything like the AOD I did a shift kit on.
Replacing it is easy, refilling it after replacing it is a bit trickier
I have read the refill procedure, holy smokes. A few guys on the Vortex mentioned carefully measuring what you take out and putting that amount back in. That makes sense, unless you spill some.
Well I'm taking the car in tomorrow for a fluid change. The dealer service writer tried to convince me on the phone that it is a waste of time to change the fluid. I told him unless he can prove the valve body is damaged I'm not going to pay him almost $2000 to throw parts at a problem. And I want to see the pan dent and exactly where/how it damaged the valve body.
If this doesn't do it I found a place that sells valve bodies for $500. Since the fluid will be new I will just drain the transmission carefully and put back exactly what I take out. I just hope the valve body goes in/out like the for AOD I worked on.
If there's pan damage and you have full coverage, it might be worth a claim if you do end up paying to replace the valve body.
Fluid changes do wonders on these trannies. "Life" fluid kills things and quickly.
As a former VW tech, upgrade your insurance with a low deductible and have an "accident" where it falls off a large cliff with no one in it.
.... unless you don't like your mother-in-law, then you might get a social security benefit as well.
The dealer called me again to say that changing the fluid is a bad idea since the fluid in the car is fine. I asked him what kind of analyzer they used. The reply "well we don't have an analyzer here but you can tell". I told him I know what burned transmission fluid smells like, but I also know that just because it doesn't smell bad doesn't mean it isn't worn out. Their "analyzer" was sniffing the fluid. Here I was thinking they had a "bobs the oil guy" type setup. He then started to explain to me how a valve body works with little springs and balls, so I stopped him and asked if he could test the shift solenoids when they drop the pan.
I had to explain to him that I understand that changing the fluid may not fix the problem and that I will not hold him responsible. I understand his position of wanting to fix the car the first time, but my wallet cannot afford his shotgun effort.
could you contact another dealer to get their opinion?
DukeOfUndersteer wrote:
could you contact another dealer to get their opinion?
I would, but this dealer does treat me very well. And the only other option near me is Jim Ellis VW. The sheer horror stories I hear about them from the VWVortex makes me hesitant. I tried them once for a replacement key, they wanted almost 3X more than Dwight Harrison wanted, plus they claimed the key had to be imported from Germany. DH had a new key cut within 24 hours, and that was with having to order one. I actually appreciate the input from the dealer and once I explained the entire situation to the dealer he understood my problem.
I switched car insurance carriers a month ago and if I make a claim this soon I'll either get canceled or my rates will jump, so that is not an option.
oh damn, didnt realize you were in atlanta. What about the VW dealer in Alpharetta? I forgot their name, it will come back to me.... GOSSETT, thats it, try them.
Hey, call me. I have THE VW trans. guy. He did my Jetta TDI trans; super cheap, too. Actually, the fluid is expensive, but call me....
-Les
770-778-7368
Well the dealer just called. The fluid change did not help. He did confirm contact between the trans pan and the valve body. Honestly I am happy just knowing what the problem is.
So now to figure out what to do next: sell the car with a harsh shifting problem and knock $X off the price? Or try to fix the problem for less than the $1900 dealer estimate? I must say that I am tempted to try swapping the valve body myself if i can find one.
But right now I'm calling Les!
Can I just say that Les is THE man? He is people who KNOWS people. The transmission guru he knows gave me all kinds of great info, including a local transmission place that sells/rebuilds valve bodies. It is only $250 for a valve body, but they recommended that I bring in the old valve body so they can test it and maybe only have to repair it. Fan-frickin-tastic.
And even better, it sounds like swapping the valve body is something I can tackle myself. Now to get my '61 Olds out of the garage so I can have enough room to work on the Beetle. I'm not risking this job to the driveway.
Ok, the valve body is now sitting in a Tupperware box in the front seat of my Sunfire.
I took lots of photos of the wiring harness connections at the valve body. The wiring harness is pretty simple if you study it. It took about 3 hours to get the valve body out, as I allowed the transmission to drain after every step. I have to recycle the fluid so I need every drop I can get.
I found a teardown on Picasa: http://picasaweb.google.com/fixeuro/CharlieWebbRO152972003VWBeetleWith09GTransmission#
VERY useful. I was able to plan my attack strategy by studying the photos. I only had to refer back to photos once for mounting bolt locations (don't want to just go and remove bolts willy nilly).
Note: the dealer didn't drop the pan like I asked them to. Kinda ticks me off, as the small dent in the trans pan did not cause contact to the valve body. I specifically told them 3x to drop the pan and check for damage. Doesn't surprise me, I guess dealerships are more into "replace" than "repair".
Seriously File a complaint with the VW Service Manager. I just got my ass handed to me because I scheduled an appointment for a customer for X work, the customer came in and asked for X + Y done and the person who checked them in never updated the work order leaving me hung up by my Z's when the work didn't get done (it was nice of them not to chance the service writer on the appointment when they were offering up crap customer service). There should be an eMail sent to you from VW corporate rating your job, make sure you state that you asked that the pan be dropped and it wasn't.
Innuendo wrote:
Seriously File a complaint with the VW Service Manager. I just got my ass handed to me because I scheduled an appointment for a customer for X work, the customer came in and asked for X + Y done and the person who checked them in never updated the work order leaving me hung up by my Z's when the work didn't get done (it was nice of them not to chance the service writer on the appointment when they were offering up crap customer service). There should be an eMail sent to you from VW corporate rating your job, make sure you state that you asked that the pan be dropped and it wasn't.
I called the Service Manager this morning and told them what I found and how I knew the pan hadn't been dropped. I also explained that had they proven non-contact with the valve body and pan while they had the car, I would have authorized the $2000 repair through my warranty service. Instead I am taking it to be rebuilt and R&R myself.
They said they would call me back. I told them I wasn't mad and didn't expect a refund (unless I was charged for the filter). I mainly said I was disappointed with being told something had been done when it had not. I know that 99.9% of their customers will never double-check their work, but this customer did and they got busted.
Wow. The VW dealer called me back. They were very embarrassed. They explained to the tech what he did wrong. They offered to comp me an oil change or knock $ off my next service. I told him I might be happy with them just checking my fluid level after I get the transmission back together. That would actually work well for me, as I think I will be down a few ounces due to what I could not drain from the valve body.
Good. I am glad you complained.
Alright, here's my update: I had the valve body rebuilt. They found a broken spring. I did the valve body removal/replace myself, pretty straight forward really. The transmission shifts better but still has a harsh downshift on the 4-3. Not as teeth jarring as before, but still harder than any automatic transmission should downshift.
I am thinking that maybe my solenoids tested fine on the bench but may be failing anyway. No codes, transmission control unit has been reset. Today I'm going to reset the throttle sensor.
I hate this car, a lot.
Have you ever heard of the term "Fire Sale?"
