But please don't excercise your god-given right to free speech by bad-mouthing the Royal Family who sent your ass out to die in some 3rd-world sandbox. I understand. The guy broke the rules. I think the rules should be changed:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304811304577366121551396072.html
(Marine discharged for bad-mouthing Thee Obama - loses all benefits.)
Seems like Thee Obama could step up with some sort of pardon. That would be a classy move.
Excerpted from a different source:
"The Marines acted after saying Stein stated March 1 on a Facebook page used by Marine meteorologists, "Screw Obama and I will not follow all orders from him." Stein later clarified that statement saying he would not follow unlawful orders.
"During a hearing, a military prosecutor submitted screen grabs of Stein's postings on one Facebook page he created called Armed Forces Tea Party, which the prosecutor said included the image of Obama on a "Jackass" movie poster. Stein also superimposed Obama's image on a poster for "The Incredibles" movie that he changed to "The Horribles," military prosecutor Capt. John Torresala said."
"At the hearing this month at Camp Pendleton, Torresala argued that Stein's behavior repeatedly violated Pentagon policy and should be dismissed after he ignored warnings from his superiors about his postings."
Free speech does not apply in these situations. Obama is effectively his superior officer. Most of the military seems to take this "loyalty" thing pretty seriously from what I have seen. Posting bad stuff about the CEO of a company you work for will likely have a similar result.
Suggestion: Don't talk sh*% about your boss to the world if you want to keep your job.
aircooled wrote: Free speech does not apply in these situations. Obama is effectively his superior officer. Most of the military seems to take this "loyalty" thing pretty seriously from what I have seen. Posting bad stuff about the CEO of a company you work for will likely have a similar result. Suggestion: Don't talk sh*% about your boss to the world if you want to keep your job.
This.
Rusted_Busted_Spit wrote:aircooled wrote: Free speech does not apply in these situations. Obama is effectively his superior officer. Most of the military seems to take this "loyalty" thing pretty seriously from what I have seen. Posting bad stuff about the CEO of a company you work for will likely have a similar result. Suggestion: Don't talk sh*% about your boss to the world if you want to keep your job.This.
no...seriously, this
...srsly
We actually did pretty good about political threads for a while. Now we get to blow it with a blatant flounder
Well, that sucks. "Them's the breaks," though.
In reply to poopshovel:
Yes, the rules should be changed, a constant stream of disobedience is definitely the fix for a volunteer army.
poopshovel wrote: But please don't excercise your god-given right to free speech by bad-mouthing the Royal Family who sent your ass out to die in some 3rd-world sandbox. I understand. The guy broke the rules. I think the rules should be changed: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304811304577366121551396072.html (Marine discharged for bad-mouthing Thee Obama - loses all benefits.) Seems like Thee Obama could step up with some sort of pardon. That would be a classy move.
Agree. I don't care what he says, because words are just words. His actions in defending our country should be considered much more significant than anything he says. Actions speak louder than words, and I personally think that the people in our military deserve better.
If I told you that I wouldn't obey your orders, would you give me any?
What use is a soldier who won't do what he's commanded to?
The guy pretty much made a big pile then stepped in it.
But, a member of congress (or even a president) who is caught lying, cheating and stealing should have the same thing done to them. Lose all the perks.
"I, XXXXXXXXXX, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
Before you say this, they actually offer to explain any parts of it you don't understand.
Hey man, words are just words you know... don't mean nutin' apparently. 
I seem to recall some Nazi trials where the soldiers under indictment claimed they were just following orders.
bludroptop wrote: "Screw Obama and I will not follow ALL orders from him." Stein later clarified that statement saying he would not follow unlawful orders.
I guess it is OK to murder millions if you are following the Commander in Chief's orders.
aussiesmg wrote: I seem to recall some Nazi trials where the soldiers under indictment claimed they were just following orders.bludroptop wrote: "Screw Obama and I will not follow ALL orders from him." Stein later clarified that statement saying he would not follow unlawful orders.I guess it is OK to murder millions if you are following the Commander in Chief's orders.
While I may disagree with some of Obama's domestic policy, I can't see how he has in anyway ordered anything like genocide and I genuinely doubt he's ordered anything illegal on a smaller scale either.
The Marine was wrong here, and, yeah, his punishment sucks. It is what it is though. I'd genuinely love to be able to take his side, but he really did berkeley up.
MG Bryan wrote:aussiesmg wrote: I seem to recall some Nazi trials where the soldiers under indictment claimed they were just following orders.While I may disagree with some of Obama's domestic policy, I can't see how he has in anyway ordered anything like genocide and I genuinely doubt he's ordered anything illegal on a smaller scale either. The Marine was wrong here, and, yeah, his punishment sucks. It is what it is though. I'd genuinely love to be able to take his side, but he really did berkeley up.bludroptop wrote: "Screw Obama and I will not follow ALL orders from him." Stein later clarified that statement saying he would not follow unlawful orders.I guess it is OK to murder millions if you are following the Commander in Chief's orders.
My point is that, "blindly following orders is fraught with danger", obviously.
I am biting my tongue on the Constitution and Obama in the same sentence.
So you guys were upset when the Nazis claimed they were just following order (as if you thought they had any choice), but you're upset when someone doesn't want to "just follow his orders"?
And here I thought this was going to be another drinking age thread.
aussiesmg wrote: I seem to recall some Nazi trials where the soldiers under indictment claimed they were just following orders.bludroptop wrote: "Screw Obama and I will not follow ALL orders from him." Stein later clarified that statement saying he would not follow unlawful orders.I guess it is OK to murder millions if you are following the Commander in Chief's orders.
Didn't take long for Godwin's Law to play into this did it?
Cone_Junky wrote:aussiesmg wrote: I seem to recall some Nazi trials where the soldiers under indictment claimed they were just following orders.Didn't take long for Godwin's Law to play into this did it?bludroptop wrote: "Screw Obama and I will not follow ALL orders from him." Stein later clarified that statement saying he would not follow unlawful orders.I guess it is OK to murder millions if you are following the Commander in Chief's orders.
Godwin's law doesn't count if intentionally invoked IIRC.
HiTempguy wrote: Godwin's law doesn't count if intentionally invoked IIRC.
That's what Hitler said.
Good grief.
Talk about over-reacting.
Does anybody know what the alleged unlawful orders were? Didn't think so.
As presented, the Marine was thoroughly guilty of insubordination. Plain and simple. He deserved it, and then some.
I'll be damned if I want to serve in a foxhole next to a guy who might not obey a direct order from his commanding officer.
However, if it was a reference to an order to do something unlawful, no enlisted person or officer is EVER required to do so.
I think it is just about some internet armchair commandos who want to interject a bit too much of their opinion into a matter that is none of their darned business.
When you join the armed services and take that oath you give up a lot of rights You never ever bad mouth a superior officer. Being in the Marines as long as he was he should have known better. Maybe he has PTSD. I see where his discharge may be delayed pending medical reports.
Serious question, at what point would it be ok to discharge him for insubordination?
I didn't think that insubordination could rise to the level of a less than honorable discharge and/or loss of pay and benefits. Apparently I was wrong.
This covers insubordination by an enlisted man or an non commissioned officer: http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm91_2.htm
*(6) Contempt or disrespect to warrant officer. Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 9 months. *
*(7) Contempt or disrespect to superior noncommissioned or petty officer. Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 6 months. *
I would venture to guess that the President would count as a 'warrant officer' for the purposes of the UCMJ.
Article 88 deals with commissioned officers who are insubordinate. http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm88.htm
As an NCO (a sergeant), he really should have known better. So I don't think 1) the punishment was out of line according to the UCMJ and 2) that Obama should pardon him. That has no bearing on my feelings about Obama (whom I do not support). Had it been Reagan being dissed on FB, it should/would have brought the same punishment.
Now if he's really nuts, maybe he needs some help.
it was not like he was not warned on several occasions.
I have a cousin who was discharged with a "general discharge" not for something he did.. but because his wife was in germany with him. Whenever he was off in the field.. she was sleeping with every man on base. It became a serious issue and they forced him out to get rid of him and her
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