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Captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/24/21 10:14 a.m.

So yesterday was Festivus, so I'm a day late in putting pen to paper on this, but I've got a lot of ideas, and now you people are gonna hear about them. 

 

 

 

 

Don't worry, there aren't problems, just potential opportunities. 

1) the elephant in the room, we're not going to discuss or mention factors and reasons why, but running used beaters haven't gotten any cheaper in the previous few years. Is it time for a $2500, $3000 or $4000 sub class? $2000 is beautifully simplicit and used to match the year of the competition, but we're entering $22 beyond that and forces are moving purchasing power the other direction. Expanding budget opens a potential pandora's box that likely wouldn't be closeable. Would recoup stay at $1000? would it be 50% of the class cap? Do the high value classes forego recoup? If Tom and the gang decided to crack open that box, it in itself would warrant a rather massive conversation. 

 

2) a grandfathered class. A chassis returning to the challenge to compete again? Cool you get previous challenge entry cost paid towards your budget. $180 is 9% of budget, that's a significant advantage that over 3-4 years can become junkyard forced induction or take off coilovers. Again a wormhole of additional recoup from year to year could also be entertained.       One factor to consider with this potential adjustment would be that it likely wouldn't increase entries so much, as it would reward those who have already come out to the event. Unless builders were bored, wanted to develop new chassis and platforms and were selling off previously entered, grandfathered legal chassis to others to come out to join in the fun. 

 

3) Allow for trading of a Challenge entry or GRM and/or Classic motorsports subscription to be utilized towards the purchase of a vehicle or parts with that equivalent dollar amount not counting against budget. Example, say Stampie has a turbo for sale for $200 and I say, hey Stampie, can I pay for you 2022 challenge entry and your GRM subscription for 2022 instead? Stampie: you can pay for my challenge entry, but I picked up the 10 year subscription back in 2017, so throw in a bottle of rye towards the bar instead. My budget hit would be the amount of the bottle of rye, minus the percentage of it that I drink while at his bar (recoup), towards the turbo. I apologize about throwing up in the pool attempting to maximize recoup of rye. 

 

4) makerspaces class. For those who aren't familiar with makerspaces, they're membership based workshops with, depending on the space, welders, 3d printers, lathes, waterjets, CNC machines and everything else under the sun in between. They often serve as incubators for small businesses as well. a single makerspace could have 20+ people within it each working on a single entity within a build. I'd be very curious to see where the entries from that class would turn into. There's a great potential crossover amongst communities to benefit both GRM and makerspaces and challengers as well. We as a community would need to promote and raise event awareness to individual makerspaces in order to create involvement and entries. 

 

5) make the event BIGGER. This sounds crazy and would be beyond an ambitious undertaking and Tom may be tempted to delete the thread prior to even reading through this recommendation. But I'm thinking a 5 day long event that cost $800-1000 per and entry (with the option of the traditional challenge on Friday Saturday still existing). But here's the format I'm thinking. Tuesday-Wednesday at The Firm, Tuesday time trial. Morning HPDE style practice, with slotted times to limit the number of vehicles on course, if your vehicle has a failure on course, you're not getting additional time or another slot. Sorry. Then afternoon, Standing start, followed by 2 flying laps and a cool down lap, making for 4 laps, 3 of them timed. Wednesday, Rallycross. Thursday off day, and help staff and our host transport things to Gainesville to get set up for the second half. Friday, autocross and drags, Saturday concourse, awards. I would propose that the full week format allow for the dropping of a dynamic score, 3 scores to be utilized as opposed to all 4. Don't want to rallycross your build, we get it, it's rough on cars and suspension travel is necessary, don't run it, use it as your drop and have an extra day to prep for the weekend. Your car is low on power, but has great suspension? Cool, you may want to drop the drag times, but you can certainly decide to make a few passes. Not sure what to drop, and want to run everything? The spreadsheet should be able to highlight where your score was lowest and be able to drop it for you. This format fits the 200tw development fantastically, but obviously would be a monumental undertaking. Would it generate more content and interest? Absolutely. I honestly would suspect that it'd become a must attend type of event and would generate more interest from potential outside influencers. And sponsorship partner wise, I feel that it would at minimum quadruple the event's value. But it would be an undertaking. Tom, let us know what would be needed to make this happen, even if it starts with telling us why it currently couldn't. Whether it be budget, staffing, etc. If you need or want to reach out to me directly as opposed to on here about potential roadblocks to making this occur, please do so. 

 

6) Autotrain class, okay, this is from the zoom chat, but the thought is amusing. 

 

7) this isn't challenge related, but it's community related. Format. How many independently owned magazines of any genre do you know of? How many internet forums are you still active on? This community is wonderful and amazing, but via natural causes, we are shrinking and we're not getting any younger. In the other thread engagement was brought up to raise awareness of the challenge to increase participation. And I agree that it's important and our host put boots on the ground at the right locations, Carlisle, PRI, Mitty, Hillclimbs, and all sorts of other events. The tagline under the title of "Grassroots Motorsports" reads "the hardcore sportscar magazine" and that's accurate and they're where they need to be to locate those who are hardcore. Being hardcore, means having some level of commitment that's internal. People who find their way here and as magazine subscribers have done so because they're not casual about their motorsports interest. It's a double edged sword. I'm not suggesting any sort of form of gate keeping, as trust me, I want the community to grow, but often people inquiring is more powerful then broad promotion. It also allows for self identification within a niche. 

Truth be told, more digital, in particular, video content is needed. But that's an undertaking in regards to labor and equipment. I miss GRM live, but it was also really only reaching the audience that is already engaged. GRM isn't the only entity facing this. I have a friend who does the digital media for an automotive organization and back in April 2020 I told him to buckle up as his content production is going to need to increase by 4-600% and that his organization would be best served by hiring 2-3 people under him to fit the future needs, and that revenue would come from it (that organization had and have to funds to make that staffing commitment, but didn't) and now they're floored because Peterson's Automotive museum has more subscribers than they do on youtube, but it's because Peterson's have been churning out 2+ videos a week on average over the past 22 months. Back to GRM, it's difficult as within the racing industry there have been fewer events within the past 2 years and supply chain issues which means financial supporters (sponsors and advertisers) have less money to partner with organizers with regards to events and content. Outside of Haggerty, there really aren't many entities within the world of motorsports who are in a better place financially now then the were prior to the world changing. So the concept of making more content won't yield the same financial return as it would have previously, unless it's generating clicks and generating funding via youtube monetization. Which gets back to, this is a niche community, do you want to see it watered down by content for a population that isn't hardcore? 

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/24/21 10:31 a.m.

also, if mentioning rules, even though this is safety related and not budget or potential entry numbers related, it's an elephant in the room that I've brought up with a few people, and not addressed directly where it should be approached, as quite frankly, I feel that it's not my place to make this decision, but having had to make the call for a helicopter on multiple occasions from the tower, and knowing that feeling, and worse yet, the feeling of calling someone's spouse. It's something you never want to do. But I would strongly consider entertaining the idea of limiting tube frame vehicles to the 1/8th mile in the drags. Their best 1/8th mile times can be compared against the 1/8th mile times to stock chassis/framed vehicles to project out what their ET would've been to not effect scoring. I would defer to the Nelson's on this as to whether I'm off base or whether an individual inspection of each tube frame chassis would need to be done to determine whether it's good idea for that chassis to be seeing the trap speeds at the end of the 1/4. I fear that an incident involving a tubeframe chassis would be the end of the event as we all know it, and not just for that year in question, and that the end of the event would be the least of our concerns as well. My knowledge and expertise with regards to drag racing safety is minimal, so I absolutely defer to those who are certified to issue licenses on the topic. Especially as it's a somewhat uncomfortable one, but it's of utmost importance. Hopefully I'm making much ado about nothing. 

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/24/21 1:28 p.m.

TL; mostly DR.

My $0.02: no free anything!

I like 10% bonus budget for returning cars

$3000? how bad are you trying to get beat by PACC Racing? Because they'll be in the 7s with that kind of money.

I like the idea of a road test, but that requires plates and insurance and "street equipment"

etc

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/24/21 2:01 p.m.

I'll be honest, I don't care or worry about how badly anyone else throttles me in the drags. I have a number in mind that is goal that I eventually want to run that many vehicles purchased off the showroom floor now run with ease. But if someone annihilates that by 5 seconds, I have zero issue with it and will enjoy witnessing that spectacle. I for one would not be looking to expand my budget beyond the base 2000, but when I think of increasing participation, I suspect budget expansion would generate additional entries as much as anything. And in the previous thread it was stated that a car running 9s is what generates the headlines in the attention, So if getting into the sevens can be done for $3,000, I'm all for that coming to the party. 

I think the idea of an every penny counts class would also be cool. 

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/24/21 3:22 p.m.

1. The much larger Roadkill Hooptie Drags is $3000. Many of the other "low buck" stuff such as LeMons have moved well beyond such arbitrarily low values. The UTCC is a much larger and more well known event that GRM puts on and it has unlimited budget. I think it's definitely high time to increase the budget. According to In2013dollars.com $2,000 from 2000 is worth $3,228.20 today already. Seriously it's time to drop the 2K and do a realistic number with no recoup, and no freebies. Makes the rules super super simple.

7. Kalmbach is still independent (Fine Scale Modeler and used to do Scale Auto, but that mag died last year). FSM has a forum that very much reminds me of GRM, just with models.

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/24/21 3:43 p.m.

An overall increase of the cost of the event, whether by making it a longer event or by raising the ceiling on the build, comes closer to making this unaffordable for me.

if the budget cap increases to say, $3000 is there a way to give concourse points or some other scoring credit for coming in under budget?
 

That would be a way to level the playing field. We already have the half budget category, if there was a way to weight it and let that figure into your final score it might add another interesting factor to the event.

 If it comes down to making changes that result in both pricing me out of competing and at the same time, insures the financial stability and longevity of the event, I'm 100% in favor of those changes. I live two hours away, and I had fun last year just coming to volunteer. I'd be fine with doing that if the event can continue to survive.

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/24/21 4:00 p.m.

In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :

I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a second, so bear with me. 

The only way one can get priced out of competing is by entry cost, the cost of a helmet and $1000 for a vehicle. The fact that fewer than 25% of entries are half budget makes the class right for the picking in something that would otherwise be slightly above a mid pack finisher. Before you can be competitive against the competition you have to be competitive against yourself and that means fielding an entry, regardless of how competitive or not it may be. I sent the escort down on all seasons, it had a snow tire on the back, and obviously I hadn't even installed the speedino or other bits onto it yet. I could have utilized those as reasons to not enter it, but I was lucky enough that Curtis was looking to take something down to run and didn't care about where it would finish, he just wanted to have something that could be a part of the action. So I was able to tell him the good the bad and the ugly, tell him the future plans as to why this would serve as a baseline, things to look out for and to shut it down if they popped up and things to look out for and ways to remedy them if they pop up. But the important thing and thing that should be emphasized is the importance of it getting down there and being in the entry field. Strangely enough since the event, at a gas station, someone ironically on the way back from picking up parts, someone stopped me and said, "I know that car! And from running around here but I saw it ran that event somewhere down south, I think it was Florida or somewhere"  he had actually never heard of GRM, in spite of it being all over the car. But he recognized its logo and the banner and pulled up the challenge website on his phone and immediately started reading over (after I directed him away from the landing page which really only steers people to this past year's results at this point). 

 

My long rambling drawn out point is. Toss together an entry. I know that you have a standing offer to be a part of Zebra Butt, but Stampie is a good guy, you can be a part of his team and still compete against him as well. 

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/24/21 4:03 p.m.

Also (yet) another subclasse idea: 

Unfinished project class. Where you purchase a non-running project or a project that hasn't yet had the swap done to it as the previous owner intended, you finish it, enter it and claim the glory. 

KyAllroad
KyAllroad MegaDork
12/24/21 4:52 p.m.

In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

I like rule number 2.  Your first run at the Challenge is $2000 but each year you come back you get a bit more budget to develop the build.

nocones
nocones GRM+ Memberand UberDork
12/24/21 5:31 p.m.

Tube frame cars should be subject to NHRA rules for the speed they run.  There should be no wiggle room just like I assume there isn't wiggle on the things the Nelson's need (as an example not picking on them) to run 9.06 and potentially 8.99. 

This should apply to exhibition or any car running.  They have to Legit be legal. 

I see no reason to shorten the strip provided the cars and drivers meet the requirements for their ET.  If there are issues with the quality or legality of safety equipment on ANY car including tube frames that should be remedied prior to running or Disqualified from drag passes.  

I spent A LOT of my budget making sure my car met NHRA requirements for a speed faster then I could run.   

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/24/21 6:27 p.m.

In reply to nocones :

I'm definitely not targeting anyone's build as well, and also plead ignorance to knowing the NHRA safety requirements as you get towards the pointy end, as even once I have boost, I'd be over the moon to go sub 13.5. But I do know that there is a heck of a lot more kinetic energy at 140mph then there is at 90mph. I agree that safety regulations should not be skirted for anyone regardless of factory chassis or tube frame. And I admit that there is the potential for a well-designed tube frame build to be safer than a factory chassis. And that we even have engineers and fabricators in here who would be capable of building and designing such a chassis. But I also know the realities of budget and time constraints especially when we get to thrashing on things. It's always prudent to have a second set of eyes on things and I admit that I'm not qualified to be those eyes, but I felt it a prudent element to bring up in the best interest of everyone. 

 

I will say if someone doesn't qualify for the speed that they're going to run that instead of having them park it, that shutting down the last 30-45 minutes at the track to 1/8th for them to run and others who normally don't drag race to work on their 60ft times would be prudent? (Maybe?) 

gumby
gumby GRM+ Memberand Dork
12/24/21 6:30 p.m.

In reply to nocones :

Here, here. And I'll add, your tube chassis car, or Robbie's, is not inherently more dangerous than my OE framerail build just because it is a tube chassis.

Trying to define some new, imaginary safety net based on the raw material used in construction is ludicrous. Meet the safety rules, enforce the safety rules. /debate

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
12/24/21 6:45 p.m.

I'll say this, it could be independent of the challenge or utcc, but $3k budget for time trial at a track competition would be something editorially very interesting. Too many people convinced they need a c5 Vette or better to start. Would have to be much more serious about safety than the challenge. 

 

 

nocones
nocones GRM+ Memberand UberDork
12/24/21 7:32 p.m.

In reply to Apexcarver :

The LMP360 was built specifically for that purpose and real money was $2660 before exemptions and recoup.  

I'm hoping to run it at the UTCC (Maybe 2022 I'm planning to do Hyperfest this year so I/the car will be there) in challenge legal trim and then maybe throw $1000 extra at it in 2023 to make enough power to turn heads.  

I'm also going to run it with Gridlife and SCCA TT once I figure out what class it will be in.  

I hope to show that you just need a welder an imagination to go fast on track also.

eastsideTim
eastsideTim PowerDork
12/25/21 11:07 a.m.

Edit - Never mind - I just noticed Javelin made the same suggestion upthread.  I second the 3K budget with no recoup idea.  I think I'd still like freebies, at least for safety items, and maybe still for tires.

As for why to keep the safety and tire exemptions, it means any car that competed under last year's rules is still eligible.

CrustyRedXpress
CrustyRedXpress GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
12/25/21 2:54 p.m.

No need to throw away decades of branding by changing the dollar amount. The decrease in purchase power is balanced out by increasing skill and knowledge of the builders as well as increasing availability of some specific parts (chinese turbos, various cheap/free EFI). You can check spreadsheets but I think the 2021 winners are just as fast, if not faster, than the 2001 group.

I would love to see the social/party/DIY community aspect of the event get way, way bigger. Forget subclasses for cars and have subclasses for best BBQ. Have Miller send a welding pro down with a tig and have a booth showing people how to weld. Beg/bribe the nelsons to put on a "Drag racing 101" presentation. Same goes for Aero, EFI, etc.

Burning Man for DIY car culture.

EDIT: I should add that if the community wants this to happen, we should make it happen, not just ask GRM to bear additional cost burdens. 

 

 

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/25/21 5:16 p.m.

In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

I'm sorry I didn't clarify.
 

When I replied, I was thinking of the proposal of adding three more days to the event with time trials and rallicross at the Firm (which sounds really fun).
 

My participation this year was almost entirely limited to three nights at the hotel and food. I only ate out for two meals, the rest of the time I ate in my room or from an ice chest at the track. That still wasn't an inconsequential amount of money out of the family budget. Three more days would double the cost of actually attending the event. 
 

In contrast, when I volunteered to work, I drove up in the morning, and drove home after helping pack the trailer. I brought some food and I only paid for gas. No hotel costs, no restaurant meals, no entry fee. 
 

To summarize, fielding an entry is only one aspect of the cost of participation. A longer event increases the overall cost. 
 

Antihero (Forum Supporter)
Antihero (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/25/21 5:30 p.m.

I don't think adding to the budget is a great idea really.

 

More subclasses to me isn't a winner either, if there is too much no one isn't in a subclass. I'm a huge fan of a Land Yacht class but looking at the prices now days I think that ship has sailed. I think there should be a single special class every year. Something very narrow like.....82 Escort Class would be cool too IMO

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
12/25/21 6:23 p.m.
CrustyRedXpress said:

I would love to see the social/party/DIY community aspect of the event get way, way bigger. 

Burning Man for DIY car culture.

I would love to see this. And also I agree with your other points.

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/25/21 6:28 p.m.

In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :

I definitely feel you on that. There's even an opportunity cost of taking that much time off of work and not spending it with family. Part of the reason why my hypothetical schedule of the longer event is split between The Firm and Gainesville, is that the original core event still exist on its own. Not everybody needs to do all four disciplines and drop one. The old format can still remain as an option for Friday and Saturday. 

 

The format of a Tuesday Wednesday, Thursday off/break, then traditional Friday/Saturday would also give some of the video and social media savvy attendees to get content edited and up on Thursday. Which will serve to draw interest to those within a 4-hour drive the opportunity to be like, heck, let's head down and watch them finish the weekend. 

 

 

I'll add that there's also a very strong potential for sponsor tie-in with the expanded format. One immediately that jumps out in particular, is Garmin. When the teams are out for their practice sessions they could all have a Garmin Catalyst on board helping them maximize their performance in learning the course. Then when they go out for their time runs in the afternoon they're doing so without assistance. 

 

Garmin could sponsor a best video content trophy and include one of their action cameras as a prize to the winner to be awarded a month after the challenge, with videos needing to be submitted within two weeks of the end of the channel. This means more user-created content, a reward for providing high level user content. And a pair of tie ins to their products being utilized at the event and in motorsports. That's excellent value, and it creates value for GRM beyond financial support, as additional shareable video content will be created. 

 

dyintorace
dyintorace GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/25/21 7:08 p.m.

Capt - I sent you an email. Just checking to see if you received it. 

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
12/25/21 7:20 p.m.

It'll never happen,  but I want a motorcycle class. Like what can you build for, I dunno,  $500? 

eastsideTim
eastsideTim PowerDork
12/25/21 8:35 p.m.

I'm going to wade back in with some less specific comments:

Defining the problem - The challenge is low on participants and is at risk, due to being a money losing proposition.

The possible fixes - Get more sponsors to cover expenses and/or get more entrants to spread the cost out more.

I'm out of the solution space on sponsors, so I'll focus on the entrants side.

My first though is compare its weaknesses against other events.  I'm going to pick two:

24 Hours of Lemons/Champcar - 9 times out of 10, a Lemons car is going to cost more than a Challenge car.  But, there is a full event schedule, and being an endurance race, it encourages cost sharing among a team.  GRM can't compete on the number of events, for two reasons, first, there's not enough manpower.  Second, if someone wants to autocross or drag race, there are already many inexpensive(ish) options, SCCA, NASA, PCA, etc. and NHRA, IHRA, and outlaw drag strips.  If you want to compete cheaply on a race track, there's only Lemons and Champcar, and a few smaller tier groups.  Yes, GRM could "farm out" sanctioning of other events, but realistically, how many venues will want to hold a two day event with three very different competitions.  Of course, there is one negative element they currently have in common - limited use of a competitive car.  A top Challenge car is as unlikely to be seen on the street as a Lemons car.  They have limited venues.  However, a Lemons car can also go to track days.  A Challenge car, unless it is very carefully constructed, is not likely to be class competitive in autocross, or if it is, it might be weaker in the challenge.

Duct Tape Drags - Promotion and backing of familiar names (Roadkill/Motor Trend).  This has the same problem as the challenge, in that it is single event.  But with the promotion and sponsorship they have, I suspect they are at least breaking even.

 

To solve one problem, there needs to be a push to include cars that can be easily used in another venue, even (and probably especially) if that's just driving it on the street. 

Second, more promotion of the event, so more people will know and be interested.  Here, I'm mostly stumped, I'm not a PR person.  But as part of this, we need the radical builds that have a wow factor.

 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
12/25/21 10:06 p.m.

Attracting participants seems hard.  The challenge is a highly unique scenario involving the combination of:

  • Extremely low budget
  • Extremely high time investment 
  • One single yearly event
  • Significant travel involved
  • A very small pool of competitors
  • Very little crossover with other motorsports

 

IMO a lot of the above seem at odds with one another.  To someone in my shoes, its almost like an oxy moron.  If I have a very limited budget, why am I building a car I'd need to tow to a single event 700 miles away instead of just autocrossing locally (or drag racing I guess), where there will be a bigger pool of competitors on a ~bi-weekly basis?  I get that there is a following for it, and I really enjoy reading about it, but it takes a unique situation/personality to even consider this, especially if the potential competitor has other competing interests.

I think there is a Financial vs. Time Investment balance which was decent back in the early 2000s, but it has grown insanely out of balance over the past almost 20 years.

One idea that has floated around and became the only thing to make me consider a challenge build in the last decade or so was the Gastropod class.  I think it needs a few tweaks (emissions/safety compliant cars, no swaps), but is a good foundation to encourage budget racing if it gains some official support of some sort.

 

slowbird
slowbird UltraDork
12/26/21 12:32 a.m.

Random musings I've thought of. The challenge is 3 facets: autocross, dragstrip, concours. But maybe that doesn't seem like enough for some people? I mean, to be fair, I drove from PA to FL and back for that and I loved it, but maybe there's room for a second autocross round. Like, autocross and dragstrips one day, then a different course the next morning before the concours. That may make the event feel more substantial, I suppose? Of course, it would also penalize those who blew up their car with NOS on the dragstrip. So, I'm torn on that one.

Or add a rallycross element, somehow? Not sure if feasible, but would be interesting.

Other ideas:

Directly advertising to Lemons teams/dedicated Lemons subclass/collaborating with the Lemons organization? (Corollary: dedicated "Lemons Rally" subclass. let's get a limo on the autocross track)

I put GRM logos on my iRacing car...as fans we can help promote the brand to generate interest, ideas on how else we can do that?

Some kind of low-budget Tim and Eric style "weird humor" viral marketing? or a "Big Bill Hell's Used Cars" spoof? lol

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