RossD wrote: Since he hasn't responded lately, should we assume Pat is still working or did he leave to go look at the thing?
I'm sitting at a long train on way to home depot. Seller working too.
RossD wrote: Since he hasn't responded lately, should we assume Pat is still working or did he leave to go look at the thing?
I'm sitting at a long train on way to home depot. Seller working too.
I just remembered someone local to me in PA posted a BMW flat-2 for sale for something like $250. I'll see if I can find if it's still available. Unfortunately, searching FB trading groups isn't very intuitive. It seems to work best if you jump on something as soon as you see it.
How hard is it to "reverse" a VW transmission? That might be another temporary (and cheap) option until a correct Panhard engine can be found. Might also help keep it under Challenge budget.
Probably the hardest part will be duplicating the missing nose.
No one has mentioned that re-selling that ghia fiberglass nose should net back almost all of the spend on this thing?
Ian F wrote: I just remembered someone local to me in PA posted a BMW flat-2 for sale for something like $250. I'll see if I can find if it's still available. Unfortunately, searching FB trading groups isn't very intuitive. It seems to work best if you jump on something as soon as you see it. How hard is it to "reverse" a VW transmission? That might be another temporary (and cheap) option until a correct Panhard engine can be found. Might also help keep it under Challenge budget. Probably the hardest part will be duplicating the missing nose.
The original trans is in the car. So use it.
I have a friend who had several Panhards and raced a Deutche Bonnet. I can bet he would be a good source for a motor and any other parts needed. I worked on several of these and know a bit about them if you need any info on setting up the motor. The valves used torsion springs and the hot replacement for the coils was a John Deere part with twin posts.
In reply to alfadriver:
I don't necessarily disagree, but it would depend on how easily that transmission could be adapted to an alternative engine without irreversible modifications.
I found the BMW engine. It's a 1200cc, air-cooled and they asking price is $100. For that price, I may buy it regardless of whether or not Pat can use it. It might work as a good starting point for the Morgan 3-wheeler replica I'd like to build some day.
This is the kind of tgread that proves my car search skills,are crap. And that's probably a good thing.
Been scoping out Panhard a bit. I love those engines.
article with some details on the engine for the panhard devin
Wild where you would wake up and go "hey, I think I'll jam a couple of Norton cylinders on this panhard motor - I'll bet it'll scream."
Reply to oldtin:
Since some of the text is wonky on that link, I've copied all the text here:
Using the Panhard crankcase, roller bearing crank assembly, and rods as a base, Devin has affixed a pair of Norton "Manx" motorcycle cylinders which are topped by an overhead cam layout. To drive these cams, one per head, a notched rubber transmission belt is used. It sounds easy enough and looks quite natural when viewed in the completed shape but the whole project has been carried on in the face of "it'll never get off the ground" type of predictions. "Anybody will tell you that you can't use a rubber belt for valve timing," Devin says, "but we are doing it anyway."
The use of notched rubber power transmission belts to operate cyclic or timed mechanisms is not unique, naturally, being in constant industrial usage, but this marks the first successful automotive application to our knowledge. Advantages of the 1.5 inch wide belt of molded rubber, bonded to a continuous steel wire base, over the more conventional chain or gears, are many. Lighter in weight, therefore lower in inertia, far more likely to disintegrate slowly than to snap suddenly, and needing no lubrication nor housing, the U.S. Rubber product certainly gets the nod .. if it doesn't stretch.
Such belts have been tried on super-chargers to replace V belts, which suffer from considerable slippage, but sheared pulley keys and pins soon proved that their action is too positive. In this cam driving application the belt has proven admirably suited, although many prophesied that under severe acceleration there would be enough resiliency or backlash to foul up valve timing. But, no stretch!
A machine adaptation for the front of the cam housing on the Norton head, with its hairpin springs, eliminated the tower shaft and several gears. As she sits, a notched pulley with 28 teeth on the end of each camshaft is driven through its own belt by a 14-tooth pulley on the front end of the main shaft .. a spot formerly occupied by the generator pulley, Two idlers maintain tension. Grafting the Norton cylinders onto the Panhard case required filling the original stud holes with 1/4-inch aluminum bolts and drilling new holes to accommodate the 7/16-inch Norton studs.There is no difference in displacement as a result of the switch, inasmuch as the bore diameter of both makes is the same: 3.12 inches. The Panhard stroke of 2.94 inches produces an oversquare engine. Although the Norton barrels are somewhat larger in overall size due to the greater fin area, there is no appreciable gain in weight, inasmuch as the Panhard is cast-iron-sleeved and the Norton all lightweight alloy.
Superimposed over the stock but overstressed bottom end, we find a big-ported head, straight-through porting, monster valves... 1-27/32 inch intake and 1.75 inch exhaust. A compression ratio of 9.5 to 1, effected through the use of Norton hi-dome pistons, is about the maximum desirable for gasoline fed replacement Weber carbs on Y inlet manifolds... one for each cylinder. The flywheel has been lightened through replace-mentl Not to overlook details, Devin whittled out a duplicate in aluminum and pressed on the steel starter ring gear... saved 8 pounds and gained much acceleration.
With cams designed for cycle racing, a normal opening and closing sequence reads something like this: Intake valve opens 571/2 degrees BTC and closes 60 degrees ABC, Exhaust opens 85 degrees BBC and closes 421/2 degrees ATC. With 42 degrees spark advance this can be considered a bit radical but the best is yet to come: The cams are assembled, and lobes can be fitted onto the shaft at any degree relationship. Want to try opening the intake a couple of degrees sooner? Fine. Disassemble the cam, move the lobe a notch and put it back together! Endless possibilities.
What actual timing he will run on a different "New" engine, Devin keeps to himself. Data on the improved model is also confidential but, as one who has been permitted to view some of the actual construction, we can say that the latest crossbreed will employ FOUR overhead cams, twin ignition and fuel injection.
"What kind of a small car can a fellow buy today that can be driven to the track and stand a chance of winning," Bill asks, "and what do you have to pay for one? Almost as much as for a much bigger car. Anything in the 750cc class you have to build yourself. I've spent $75,000 developing this thing and if I had another hundred thousand I'd build a hundred push-rod Devin Panhards. I've made arrangements with the factory for components and the bugs have been worked out of my new body. I could make and sell such a car, complete, for $2,250 or $2,450 with a hardtop. You could drive it on the street every day and yet go to the track and run with the best of them. I think I've proved that." The story is familiar but the ending is yet untold. The difference in the plot as it looks from here is in the one word, "ability". Here is a man with ability. A man with a dream, true, but backed by enough persistence and know-how to go far beyond the conventional for a solution to his problems. Perhaps a financial solution will be found as well and we will be thrilled by the pants-ripping snarl of a Hock of Devin-Norton-Panhards in future races.
In reply to RossD:
So the first application of a timing belt. Very interesting.
And VERY interesting to see them do so much work on the base engine. Which makes it seem to be ok to make a more applicable switch until all of the correct parts can be assembled. Somehow.
It was also interesting that you could get a blower, and run in GM instead of HM.
Done working waiting to hear back that seller is home
patgizz wrote: Done working waiting to hear back that seller is home
Something came up, he asked me to come tomorrow. Will do, but doubt I'll sleep well tonight
Following this closely, that is way cool!
patgizz wrote:patgizz wrote: Done working waiting to hear back that seller is homeSomething came up, he asked me to come tomorrow. Will do, but doubt I'll sleep well tonight
Noooooooooooooo!!
Just got a text saying "sorry i had to stop the sale of the car temporarily "
patgizz wrote: Just got a text saying "sorry i had to stop the sale of the car temporarily "
oh no!!
Crap. He has probably been inundated with calls and realized he has something that might be worth more than $650...
Or he is on our forum 
but definitely sounds like he is rethinking the sale.... I'll have to use this next time when my wife says "why do you have to run out right now and go buy that piece of crap" 
Pleass GOD let Pat Have this Car. I'll say it again Before I Sleep.
Link was just deleted from Craigslist........
I hope some other grmer got it if pat didn't....
Maybe somebody clued him in. Still not an easy sale. Rusty, missing a lot, butchered body and rusty frame and missing the hardest part to replace.
oldtin wrote: Maybe somebody clued him in. Still not an easy sale. Rusty, missing a lot, butchered body and rusty frame and missing the hardest part to replace.
Kind of what I was thinking. How do you value something like this? Yes, its ridiculously rare, but needs a metric butt load of work.
I'm imagining that we're the only bunch of lunatics who'd be interested.
I still love that it took the collective under an hour to identify it, though.
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