1985 Alfa Romeo GTV6 (my first Alfa)

Mezz: So the engine in the picture is a FWD engine mounted laterally in the 164, to make it fit to my RWD GTV6 I'll have a small list of things to do.

• the intake manifold is going to point the throttle body right at my firewall unless I can find a way around it. I could bolt up my current 2.5l intake manifold to the 3.0 runners, but I would lose those sexy shiny runners the 3.0 has, and that's just not an option.

• I'll need the 2.5's oil pan and oil sump. I also understand there will be some machining of the oil sump required.

• 2.5 flywheel, timing belt covers, accessory belt pulleys, water pump, and alternator will be required.

• Exhaust manifolds will require something... The FWD exhaust manifolds this thing has wont be an option, and I'm not sure the 2.5 liters will.

• ECU. Rumor has it I can run this on my 2.5's ECU "at a loss" but I have an MS 3 laying around and this seems like a good application.

it's a long ways away though, especially at the rate I'm working. But it'll be worth it. This engine is an easy 40hp bump over my 2.5, and then the modifications can start. Depending on how long this takes I may farm out some of the work while the rest of the car is being worked on, and have a hot little number right out of the box. BUT driving the Toyota has shown me how much better it is to have a "rolling project" so I'm not sure

Woody: Mrs. Hungary asked "yeah, but what if it doesn't run". In that case I have a large slab of table glass I picked up from Habitat For Humanity. It's easily 1/2"thick, nice round corners and edges. This would make the perfect base for a top-gear like table.

Worst case I just put it on an engine stand and stare at it

Good times

In reply to Hungary Bill:

My parents had one of those glass tables when I was a kid. It was an inch thick. I would put my eyes right up to the edge of it and I could see the laminations.

They didn't have an Alfa engine under it though.

How are the runners attached at the engine end? If it's clamps and boots you could just rotate them 180* and pop the upper intake back on. Or you could probably flip the upper intake over at the expense of it being ugly. Or you could clamp 3 weber sidedrafts on the runners for maximum cool factor.

Kenny_McCormic wrote: How are the runners attached at the engine end? If it's clamps and boots you could just rotate them 180* and pop the upper intake back on. Or you could probably flip the upper intake over at the expense of it being ugly. Or you could clamp 3 weber sidedrafts on the runners for maximum cool factor.

Those shiny bits you see are bolted to the heads. It looks like a webber type mounting base and they're not equal in length left vs right. I had the same idea though. I'm thinking I'm going to mark them 1-6 and see if I cant just spin that puppy around.

The solution I've seen online looks like this:

I'm not a big fan of the 180deg bend there at the back, but I'm not exactly utterly opposed to it either. It looks like I could retain the stock maf and air-box mounting points though, which would be a plus. But if I go the MS3 route I don't plan on retaining the MAF.

If you look close at the angle of the throttle body in the picture you can see it's pointed away from the 180-deg bend. To me, that has vacuum leak written all over it.

I do have two pairs of GSXR throttle bodies laying around if it comes down to that, buuuuuuut I may want to wait until I get the engine installed and running, then MS'd and running again, before I start down that road

Ok, back on track. The engine is out of the truck and on the floor of my garage. As I look it over, I notice it was removed in a very "junk-yard" way. That is all the lines and wires are just cut, and not removed.

I did have a bit of a treasure hunt going in the valley between the heads. It's kind of a known "black hole" with these engines and I'm happy to say this one didn't disappoint. I found a couple random bolts, and a gasket that was attracted to the magnet I was using to fish this stuff out (I assume it's an exhaust gasket). There's also a large plastic piece I couldn't get out. Next time I'm in that way I'll give it a better effort.

I am very jealous

So there are other things I really SHOULD be working on, but the question of "can I just flip the plenum around" is just KILLING me. I really want it answered and I figured, if I rush, the 30-minutes I found this morning before work should at least give me some insight as to what I'm dipping my toe into.

To give you an idea of the runner situation, they're unequal in length and look like this:

Starting on the side opposite of the throttle body I label the runners 1-through-6. My idea is that I'll disconnect the runners from the head, and just spin the whole assembly around (so 1-6 will now be 6-1).

So far everything looks ok

I'm already thinking of how I'm going to adjust the fuel rail, injector connectors to make this work a little better. At first I worry that the runners are binding on the valve cover, but I can get a thin piece of cardboard between them so I'm feeling pretty good at this point. I figure I'll re-route the wiring a bit and maybe re-plumb the fuel rail 180-off as well to go that little "extra" and then I'll make a post about my successes here and on the BB (alfabb.com)

buuuuuuuuut, we all kind of knew there was a reason people would go and fab a 180 intake elbow instead of just flipping the manifold. Didn't we

The point you see the plenum at in the picture is the closest I can get it to the runners. The.... I guess I'll call it the "bypass hose" on the throttle body hits on the timing belt cover (it only gets worse from this point. Pushing the intake plenum up and out of the way of the runner). I initially think "well, heck. I'll just flip the throttle body upside down" but it looks like if I do that then the throttle assembly will hit at the same point.

I think longer rubber runner attachments may be the easiest route. But with differing sizes on either side of that rubber (larger on the plenum) I think that may be a tough one to find.

Then I think maybe a spacer is in order. Mezzanine let me play with some of his welding equipment once, and I even bought a tig of my own. I REALLY suck at it still, but I figure two flanges and some tubing and I'll be in and out in no time (well, that and a LOT of welding practice).

But then I notice the next issue in line.

Now, I know Alfa's weren't really built with "maintenance in mind" but removing the intake plenum to top off the oil (oil, that we all know is eventually going to leak) is a bit much. Even for me.

So this'll just go in the back of my head for a bit. Oil filler relocation, and throttle body relocation.

"Pretty" is one of the goals with this engine so flipping the intake plenum upside down (placing the "Alfa Romeo" on the under side) I think is probably not going to happen unless I can think of no other way.

Good times

Can you swap the valve covers? Is the 'bypass hose' an idle air hose? Can you just tap a new spot on the plenum or the throttle body spacer that's already there?

If you had a set of spacers (1/2", 1"?) Between the runners and the block would that raise them high enough to get your clearance? Basically plug them back into the plenum and see how much higher it has to sit to fit. Might be easier than fabbing whole new runners which is the next logical thing.

In reply to mazdeuce:

Some phenolic spacers or is that overkill?

So this is where I tell you that I just got moved to day shift (my move to nights is initially what caused the "stall" in the build). And it's this move that's affording me about 30-minutes of garage time in the mornings (if I shower and brush my teeth really quick). I'm seriously considering setting my alarm 15-minutes earlier (so 3:45am) to snag an extra moment or two every day. I'll be on this shift until the end of the month so wish me luck in that department.

Mezzanine, though, in his build reminded me that it’s going to get cold here soon and it'd be a good idea to lay paint down before it did. With that being said, when I left off my goal was to re-spray the engine bay with "GM Trunk Spray". It's pretty much a gritty "speckle paint", but doesn't look half bad.

I originally bought six cans thinking I'd have enough to do the whole bay. So far I've done the front face and the part of the side you see here (passenger side) and I have about two-and-a-half cans left... Looks like I may be ordering more soon. Although, if I were to go back and start over I'd probably pick something with more of a "grey" base. At the time though I didn't have any experience with such things and thought the black base would hide grease and oil a bit better.

If you look at the picture you can see that I'm stopping at the seams. I'm trying to go section by section because the bay is pretty darn caked in grease and dirt. The previous owners did a "wham-bam" job of painting the bay, and it looks awful. I'm trying to make sure it looks better when I'm done (fingers crossed)

Ross:

yeah, it’s the idle air hose (thanks. Still getting used to the new shift). I'm not sure if there’s a boss I can tap into, but I’ll certainly give it a gander tomorrow. If I remember I'll snap a few pictures of the throttle body and see if we can't figure something out. Swapping valve covers was another idea I had. My hangup was that the cylinders are labeled 1-6 at the spark plug holes. This may lead to confusion down the line if I don't grind those off.

mazdeuce: Spacers might be the ticket. These look like simple Weber flanges and I bet flea-bay would have some metallic versions in any material of my choice pretty cheap. I think the fuel rail would be the only pinch point there. With the plenum attached to the runners, but the runners unbolted from the heads I can't pull the assembly out. I have to remove the plenum and wiggle the runners out of the area, but I can't seem to remember which part exactly was hitting which part. That's something I'll have to look into as well.

Ross:

I wonder. If I change the material (phenolic, CF, etc) it might create a heat barrier between the metallic portion of the runner and the heads.

RossD wrote: In reply to mazdeuce: Some phenolic spacers or is that overkill?

No such thing as overkill, but since the final ones will probably need to be CNC cut or something (I can't quite see this being a popular off the shelf item) then using a proper intake spacer material would make sense. If it were me I'd be mocking it up in plywood or something to check the clearances, but I'm low tech like that.

Ok, but really. I also need to clean up my garage. It's still a bit messy after the Toyota build (and you're viewing this without the Impala in it's parking spot. You can't even walk through the place with her in the garage)

In posting the pictures above, I came to the realization that I now own more engines than cars.

Achievement unlocked

Woody wrote: In reply to Hungary Bill: My parents had one of those glass tables when I was a kid. It was an inch thick. I would put my eyes right up to the edge of it and I could see the laminations.

Going to try this when I get home

Have you seen this? Maybe you can get some ideas here:

http://www.g-site.com/alfaxtc/

In reply to Woody:

Bill is now required to paint his valve covers red.

Looks like they left the intake plenum facing the same direction as stock and fabbed an offset box thingy to move the throttle body. Any chance you could cut the throttle body end off the plenum, cap that end and weld it onto the other end? I did something similar with my Mercedes Diesel build to move the inlet of the plenum:

Parts car:

http://longisland.craigslist.org/pts/5245339847.html

Woody wrote: Parts car: http://longisland.craigslist.org/pts/5245339847.html

Ok, woody? Posts like that are the reason Mrs. Hungary won't let me hang out with you anymore.

(un)fortunately the ad's been deleted. I could have used that hood...

In reply to bgkast:

For a non-turbo car, that certainly is a LOT of plumbing. I'm not sure how I feel about cutting the throttle-body flange off the intake manifold but I may borrow a few things from this picture.

For instance. Maybe instead of welding the offset box to the intake manifold I could bolt it. Then bolt the throttle body to the offset box, use the rubber intake tube there to the MAF and then use the stock air-box from there (or the cone filter I have).

I think that intake tube running across the top of the radiator there is a bit much though.

Definitely going with red valve covers now

It's also nice to see someone else have an engine bay that isn't painted to match. I wasn't sure how mine was going to look when all was said and done, and seeing it here makes me LOTS more comfortable with the execution. (not that I had much choice. There was no way I was going to get all that undercoating out of my bay)

Good times

Not much to report today other than I pulled the engine numbers off the 3-liter.

AR06412: 3.0l 1991-1993 Alfa 164.

Nice info I guess in case I have to order parts.

I'm also looking at that throttle body. That line I referred to as an "idle air hose" seems fishy to me. It looks more like a coolant line, but I cant see any sort of valving (I was expecting a thermal valve of some sort) or anything that it would be there for... I'm starting the digging but googling "164 throttle body coolant hose" doesn't yield much info. May have to go digging for a shop manual.

My thought was, since this seems to be the first "pinch point" with the intake flip. Maybe it can be omitted, and we can move on to the next pinch point (ignoring, for the moment, the oil fill problem)

Good times

edit: Found a diagram

I really can't see a reason for coolant to pass through the throttle body except for the sole purpose of warming it a bit. Maybe for cold climates?

More digging to continue...

I was trying to find a diagram for your tube on the throttle body and found this:

It doesn't help you at all and might actually cause you more problems.

I may have missed it: Was that engine out of a Milano or a 164? I'm guessing 164?

164 ('91-'93)

When you go red on the valve covers, just see that it is wrinkle red.

Seriously though, I can help with the intake fab. This is a minor issue. Get the other stuff done.