tuna55 wrote: I spoke incorrectly before, the idler arm and steering box would need to go up, not down.
Oof... Yeah, that changes things. I probably wouldn't try that either.
tuna55 wrote: I spoke incorrectly before, the idler arm and steering box would need to go up, not down.
Oof... Yeah, that changes things. I probably wouldn't try that either.
SkinnyG wrote: But if you don't notice it during ~driving~, you might just be making more work for yourself. Or introducing ~other~ issues with the changes you are making. Is this truck just a driver for you? Or do you cool-plans/ulterior-motive for it? (I was offered a free black '72 C10 recently. Needs ALL the rust patch panels, but I'm more in love with a '64-66, so I passed on it).
I'm not putting it back together like this!
BrokenYugo wrote: This sounds like one of those "If I only had a lathe" moments. I would think you'd want to braze the sleeve in, or weld it with nickel rod.
From what I understand, brazing has the same issues that welding does.
tuna55 wrote: I was inspired. I removed the swaybar link, pulled a spring, and measured the bump steer. From full droop to full compression it's. ........ Like 30 degrees.
I think there are other tie rod ends which also have the weird 11/16" thread but are bigger in terms of taper, though I don't think that are bigger enough that the minor diameter of the big one is bigger than the major diameter of the now one.
Federal Mogul said: ES415RL (what Tunatruck has now): .499/.626 with 2" per foot ES409RT (bigger but still 11/16" threaded) .593/.757
So that won't work because I will have less taper engagement just by reaming the taper in reverse.
Let me (try to) get this all straight in my head:
The stock bump steer was crap. But at least at stock ride height, it wasn't too crap.
Now, truck lowered, its crappier. And bumpsteer is worse, because the tie-rod tapered dealie is too high.
So, to bring the bumpsteer from "worse crappier" back to simply "crap", either the tie rod needs to be flipped, or made offset, or the whole steering box dealie needs to be lowered.
Is that about right?
Just thinking here...if you were to use an offset tie rod end dealie (like you pictured before) wouldn't the angle between the two tie rods (pitman arm and spindle end) stay the same, in effect not changing bumpsteer at all (i.e., it stays worse-crappier)? It seems like the only way to really "fix" this problem is either
1) Raise steering box (difficult and time-consuming)
2) Flip tie rod end to bottom (issue with taper being backwards)
3) Alter spindle in some way
4) Punt and install a steering rack 
Sorry if I'm just repeating stuff, but maybe it'll help.
Can you flip the pitman arm on the steering box upside-down? Would that help any? I realize there may be frame clearance issues here. You'd have to flip the idler setup on the other side, too.
volvoclearinghouse wrote: Let me (try to) get this all straight in my head: The stock bump steer was crap. But at least at stock ride height, it wasn't too crap. Now, truck lowered, its crappier. And bumpsteer is worse, because the tie-rod tapered dealie is too high. So, to bring the bumpsteer from "worse crappier" back to simply "crap", either the tie rod needs to be flipped, or made offset, or the whole steering box dealie needs to be lowered. Is that about right? Just thinking here...if you were to use an offset tie rod end dealie (like you pictured before) wouldn't the angle between the two tie rods (pitman arm and spindle end) stay the same, in effect not changing bumpsteer at all (i.e., it stays worse-crappier)? It seems like the only way to really "fix" this problem is either 1) Raise steering box (difficult and time-consuming) 2) Flip tie rod end to bottom (issue with taper being backwards) 3) Alter spindle in some way 4) Punt and install a steering rack
Well put. Perhaps you can link your drawing here for those playing at home.
I think you're right about the offset tie rod. I decided that and neglected to mention it here.
The only other modification to your summary is that I would not only have to move the steering box attachment point but also the idler arm attachment point.
volvoclearinghouse wrote: Can you flip the pitman arm on the steering box upside-down? Would that help any? I realize there may be frame clearance issues here. You'd have to flip the idler setup on the other side, too.
The pitman arm is straight, so it wouldn't really help anything.
Another idea: would it be possible to adjust the lengths of the rods in the system- presumably there are 3 rods- the center link, and two tie rods at each end- which would give a more favourable bump-steer arrangement, thus making the negative effects of lowering the truck less pronounced? This might require repositioning the idler arm setup, and possibly the steering box, but only in a left-right orientation and not up-down, which may be easier, if there's no other truck bits in the way.
tuna55 wrote:volvoclearinghouse wrote: Can you flip the pitman arm on the steering box upside-down? Would that help any? I realize there may be frame clearance issues here. You'd have to flip the idler setup on the other side, too.The pitman arm is straight, so it wouldn't really help anything.
Right, but doesn't the tapered dealie attach tot he bottom of it, like in that sketch I sent you? If you flipped it, it would be on top, raising it, just as you have raised the dealie on the spindle end when you lowered the truck.
volvoclearinghouse wrote: Another idea: would it be possible to adjust the lengths of the rods in the system- presumably there are 3 rods- the center link, and two tie rods at each end- which would give a more favourable bump-steer arrangement, thus making the negative effects of lowering the truck less pronounced? This might require repositioning the idler arm setup, and possibly the steering box, but only in a left-right orientation and not up-down, which may be easier, if there's no other truck bits in the way.
TunaDad tried telling me that, so I did all sorts of combinations with shorter and longer arms. The story is that nothing is helping as much as flipping the tie rod, and the rod length solution requires welding on the center link to make it shorter or longer, so it's nontrivial.
volvoclearinghouse wrote:tuna55 wrote:Right, but doesn't the tapered dealie attach tot he bottom of it, like in that sketch I sent you? If you flipped it, it would be on top, raising it, just as you have raised the dealie on the spindle end when you lowered the truck.volvoclearinghouse wrote: Can you flip the pitman arm on the steering box upside-down? Would that help any? I realize there may be frame clearance issues here. You'd have to flip the idler setup on the other side, too.The pitman arm is straight, so it wouldn't really help anything.
That's not a bad idea. I'll check.
Here's the sketch I drew for Tuna:
Pitman arm would hit the frame of upside down. Good idea though!
I also noticed that apparently my centerlink is reversible. Weird.
What if you went rack & pinion?
I mean, all this work and all....
SkinnyG wrote: What if you went rack & pinion? I mean, all this work and all....
Some folks have swapped to electric OEM power steering racks. It's actually a really great idea. I don't exactly know where to begin though. I suppose I'd rather get the motor on column type for style sake but that probably means taking the whole column and r&p together.
tuna55 wrote: Pitman arm would hit the frame of upside down. Good idea though!
I was afraid of that. Oh well, worth looking at.
On the reversible centerlink...it's probably so the drunken UAW worker slapping trucks together in 1971 couldn't get it wrong. 
In reply to tuna55:
My 0.018 Euros:
I think, for what you're doing, the power steering conversion might be worth the extra time, trouble, and money. Plus, it'll be learning a new thing, which is always good. I'm sure someone here has done it, and you can probably get some advice. I bet there's even a way to do it while retaining a non-modern steering wheel (which is ugly).
Look at it this way: the stock steering on your truck is terrible. Even if you "fix" the bumpsteer issue, you're only really getting it back to "just terrible" from its current state of "undriveable". So that's a lot of effort for a mediocre result, not to mention, at this point, there's still no real clear path forward for that mediocre result.
Electric power steering would make the truck easier to drive, more livable for low-speed maneuvering, give you sharper steering response, AND, realistically, add value to the truck. Other than you and my wife and myself, I don't know anyone who wants their car to stay manual steering- and the wife's deal is her '68 Camaro that she's emotionally attached to (manual steering and brakes). For your larger, heavier, more front-weight-biased truck, this seems like an easy choice. Heck, I'm contemplating converting a Volvo Amazon to r+p for the next one I build up. I love it in my Volvo 240- very responsive.
volvoclearinghouse wrote: In reply to tuna55: My 0.018 Euros: I think, for what you're doing, the power steering conversion might be worth the extra time, trouble, and money. Plus, it'll be learning a new thing, which is always good. I'm sure _someone_ here has done it, and you can probably get some advice. I bet there's even a way to do it while retaining a non-modern steering wheel (which is ugly). Look at it this way: the stock steering on your truck is terrible. Even if you "fix" the bumpsteer issue, you're only really getting it back to "just terrible" from its current state of "undriveable". So that's a lot of effort for a mediocre result, not to mention, at this point, there's still no real clear path forward for that mediocre result. Electric power steering would make the truck easier to drive, more livable for low-speed maneuvering, give you sharper steering response, AND, realistically, add value to the truck. Other than you and my wife and myself, I don't know anyone who wants their car to stay manual steering- and the wife's deal is her '68 Camaro that she's emotionally attached to (manual steering and brakes). For your larger, heavier, more front-weight-biased truck, this seems like an easy choice. Heck, I'm contemplating converting a Volvo Amazon to r+p for the next one I build up. I love it in my Volvo 240- very responsive.
So the question is:
What are the donors? I presume I'll have to match the width with the knuckles. I also presume that I'll still need to modify the knuckle to attach to the R&P tie rod thing. I'll also assume that I'd really rather the electric-on-the-column ideas for cleanliness under the hood, but that would necessitate finding a good match for column and for R&P. I'll also presume I can find a legit black box to control the thing. I'll also fairly solidly assume that I can get an alternator for the truck which will suffice for driving it.
If you use a Saturn vue ele tric assist column, the steering wheel spline count and size is the same as your 72 steering wheel. Additionally, there is an inexpensive ebay controller for ir, and readily available u joint.
Dusterbd13 wrote: If you use a Saturn vue ele tric assist column, the steering wheel spline count and size is the same as your 72 steering wheel. Additionally, there is an inexpensive ebay controller for ir, and readily available u joint.
Can you undress the column to un ugly it?
I assume the r&p must match the column?
Dusterbd13 wrote: If you use a Saturn vue ele tric assist column, the steering wheel spline count and size is the same as your 72 steering wheel. Additionally, there is an inexpensive ebay controller for ir, and readily available u joint.
Ding!
That's what I found, too.
You'll need to log in to post.
