Last of the VTEC Screamers - 2010 Civic Si daily funmobile

a long time ago, at a more tender age back when i could throw a couple back for a night and not be hungover for 3 straight days afterwards, i got a ride around VIR in a buddy's black Type-R during a DE weekend.  that thing was a howling riot, and did things i didn't think a FWD car could/should do.  shortly afterwards, i ended up rooming with another friend who had a '99 Si.  that car was just a masochist....i developed an admiration for how it seemed to want to be beaten relentlessly and kept asking for more while driving like an overgrown go-kart.  not the fastest cars, but they were unfiltered and alive, and it stuck with me ever since.  

fast forward a decade and a half, and in late summer 2017 my beloved 2.5RS got punted at a red light.  i'm faced with a dilemma - i'm a family man that needed a compact, fun, utilitarian and efficient car that was as reliable but also as "analog" as the subaru, but i wanted more power and a better chassis that didn't require so much tweaking to make it handle not like garbage.  had to have a manual tranny and a real back seat + trunk, and more modern safety amenities.  but beyond all that, it had to have a sense of character and occasion, and i came to find that very few cars in the sub-$15k range can measure up to that list.

for 3 straight weeks after my wreck, i looked at everything, and even started breaking my own rules to make something fit.  i mean, literally, from Toyota X-Runners to Honda Crosstours to E91 wagons to IS300s.  i had things narrowed down in the end to 2 finalists - the MKVII GTI and 8th Gen Si.  Truth be told, they're very opposite characters, but each had strengths in certain areas and i had to figure out what felt the most fitting.  i knew the GTI was a powerhouse and had the benefit of that awesome hatchback utility.  but i still remembered those days i spent in those old hondas....man they were good.  were they still that good?  i had to find out.

first up was the GTI, but long story short, despite lots of crazy August discounts last year and plenty of seemingly willing dealerships, there was a lot of cat and mouse BS sales tactics and i couldn't land one for the price i felt comfortable with.  it also didn't make much sense in reality - i work from home and drive about 5,000 miles a year.  i'd be taking a big depreciation hit while my Shiny New Thing™ sat in the garage most of the time, collecting dust and running out its warranty.  so, that chapter was over.

enter Round 2 of the car hunt, which then became finding and driving a clean, unmolested 8th Gen Si with less than a billion miles on it for reasonable money.  i test drove one locally, which was a smoker's car with a string of hazy ownership records and a couple half-assed modifications.  i had to try it out though.  i got hold of a salesman, took the car out, and by the first on-ramp it was clear these cars were special.  truly a dual personality car - relaxed enough when you're just moving around, typical civic.  but crest that 6,000 rpm limit and lean on the suspension and its angry, and dynamic, and full of racecar noises that gave me "the fizz".  i loved the driver interface, everything where it needs to be for performance driving and the inputs are Right Now - steering, clutch, shifter.  tons of room inside too, for what they are.  seemed to be stout build quality as well.  i made a note of it, left, and decided this was the answer.  i came to the realization that these Si's are sort of the "Last Mohicans" of the golden age of high-RPM VTEC hondas.  only 4 honda models ever came to the states with an 8,000+ RPM redline, LSD, and 6 speed 'box: the S2000, NSX, ITR and 8th Gen Si.  in short, honda will never build a car like this again for emissions reasons, combined with the horsepower wars, which demand turbo power and lower revs.  the newer civics will be faster, sure, but the experience i loved will be gone.  i was committed to finding my own rev-happy honda driving experience.

it became obvious very quickly that i had taken on a task that may require therapy.  finding a decent 8th gen coupe is easy, but a sedan?  forgettaboutit.  over the course of 2 weeks i test drove 3 different Si's and attempted to purchase 2 of them in 2 different states, both deals falling apart in the final hour either due to negotiations not working out or the seller's life events taking the car back off the market.  with my insurance rental gone at this point, i had about a week to figure this out or i'd have to just settle for what i could find locally, and to be honest i was getting emotionally drained anyway.

finally, in what felt like the 11th hour of the final inning of the last game, i came up on an Autotrader ad buried at the bottom of a list of cars, for an Si at a little tiny "mom & pop" dealer right here in GA, that checked every box I was hoping for: nice color, 09-11 MY, 1 owner southern car and UNMOLESTED.  i cannot put too fine a point on how hard it is to find one of these things in anything resembling stock condition.  higher miles than i wanted, but it looked great.  So, I had to jam over to the bank right before it closed before the Labor Day weekend, and then hit the road way early Saturday.  The owner, Ron, was super cool and I found out he's a racer as well with an S2000.  he agreed to hold the car for me and give me right of first refusal.

within a mile, i'm sold.  clean as a whistle and drives great.  so as i'm driving it, Ron gets 2 calls - one guy wants to come buy the car today, and another guy from TN is trying to buy it sight unseen, over the phone, with a credit card.  holy crap!  apparently i'm not the only one who really wants one of these.  no more screwing around, let's get a check in this guy's hand.  i felt like Indiana Jones outrunning the boulder trap and escaping with the gold idol....but i made it.

and so, finally, later that day i pulled this into the driveway:

2010, 92k mostly highway miles, almost new tires, rust free.  Dyno Blue Pearl.  it has some warts, sure - a couple good rock chips, some spider cracking in the paint on the rear bumer from a boop, the wheels are chewed up from some sloppy parallel parking, and a cracked fog light.  overall though, it just rips and feels as tight as a car with far less miles.

current plan is to just love on it, drive it as much as i can, and do some DE events.  i'd love to rallyx it, but i'm currently being a huge pansy trying to get over not wanting to get it all dirty.

immediately after getting it home, it got a couple service items:

•  full detail inside and out
• new oil/filter and Honda MTF for the 'box
• air intake and cabin filters
•  touch up paint ordered
•  battery tie-down brace cleaned and re-sprayed black
•  installed and hardwired my old dashcam
• OEM mudflaps f/r

mod plans will be pretty straightforward updates to ensure the car is capable of turning a drama-free HPDE weekend while remaining as stock as possible and daily driver friendly.  its incredibly tempting to throw parts at the engine....a reliable 230whp is completely formulaic with bolt-ons at this point.  but, i really enjoy it just the way it is, and i've never been a "numbers guy" anyway, so these parts will come in slowly:

• TSX front caliper upgrade with proper performance pads f/r
• shift knob (just a thing i do to make it "mine")
• Hondata Flashpro tune
• oil pan baffle (long way off, that's a big job
• some real sticky tires once i burn off the garbage Hankook Ventus that are on there now
   

interestingly, this was originally a Canadian car, purchased at Parkway Honda in Toronto.  it looks like it lived its first year around there and then the rest in Atlanta.  as a result my guage cluster will only tell me the temperature in Celcius, although I'm getting better at converting it on-the-fly to 'Merica units.

poking around under the hood, i found some weirdness in the form of this "anti-corrosion" thing.  

this module was mounted on the shock tower and had leads to the battery.  i came to find out its one of these "electromagnetic rust inhibitors" of what i would probably describe as having a....dubious...reputation for effectiveness.  points to the PO for at least trying? but yeah, not even those super legit scientists at 0:45 can keep this from leaving via the trashcan.  

Nice score! (How big would the "final coat" box have to be for a 240Z? Probably the size of a car battery.)

 How would you compare this to the 2.5RS in terms of understeer/handling ---engine power band, and overall daily living? Can you have your cake and eat it too, or the more civilized... the less rally-ish?

In reply to Agent98 :

for a 240 you might need to hook it directly to a flux capacitor 

i owned the RS for nearly 10 years on the mark before it was totaled, from completely stock to somewhat modified by the end, so i have a pretty decent scope of experience to compare it to my new Si.  you can read all about it here.

to make a super long story a little less long - the old "GD" impreza chassis is tough as an anvil, but nowhere close to the geometry of the "F" chassis 8th gen civic.  my RS had STi struts, hardened bushings, braces, sway bar, camber/caster modifications, etc...and while fun and capable, the balance and overall precision still did not compare to the Si even in stock form.  i've driven my share of GD STi's as well...those are better, but its in large part to the 3 trick diffs that are at sprinkled at every driveline junction to control power and manipulate the balance.  you pay the price in weight with those models though.  the RS was wonderfully predictable, and i could take it to the limit with ease, but it is outclassed by the Si.  here's a fun example from someone doing a bit of an Si track build on youtube - his mildly prepped Si is already faster than his 500whp STi was.  

power wise, the K20 is far more rewarding, powerful, and efficient...and should be far more reliable to boot.  the EJ owes its roots to a design created in the mid 90's and it shows.  the RS had better lazy around-town drivability, but that was due mostly to the displacement which is nothing surprising, and its not to say the Si is difficult or ineffective in stop and go stuff particularly with the tight-ratio 6 speed and flat torque curve.  had i ever tried to modify the EJ with cams, porting, or higher compression pistons, i'm sure it would have been a fun engine but the K20 architecture is just so far advanced in comparison that its just an apples to oranges ordeal.  so far, my gas mileage in the Si stands at 26 in town and 32 on the highway which is great in my opinion for a 3000lb car that wants to rev and has short gear spacing.  if i beat the daylights out of it, it drops a bit more towards 24, but amazingly it just always seems to stay in the 26-28 range in my daily spirited travels.  i expect the K to make it to 200k miles or more without any drama whatsoever, which i also probably would have seen out of my RS but i took meticulous care of it and it had a better, safer ECU tune.

the Si is more civilized for sure.  interiors have come a long way in a decade or more.  its not luxurious by any means but the plastics and fabrics are better, and the seats are leagues better.  i liked the visibility in the RS a little better but that's mostly because ALL old cars had  lower beltlines.  better sound deadening in the Si as well.  people seem to love or hate the civic's 2-tiered dash...i don't like the aesthetic, but i appreciate the utility of it.  it really is easy to get used to and enjoy.  i think the Si is a safer car as well with the side airbags.

one area the RS was obviously better was traction of course.  it was unstoppable.  on a rallyx course, it could lay down all its power, all the time, and i'd often walk away from turbo cars by virtue of the dead flat torque curve.  the Si struggles to get out of the hole even with the Torsen diff and you do get some inside wheelspin if you manhandle it, but that is at least half due in part to the crappy tires that are currently on the car from the previous owner.  

i'll end up rallyx'ing the civic at some point, i'm sure of it, and i'll make a better comparison then.  but i would say to your original point - i think you CAN have both.  my RS was truly a rally car for the street....it was loud, brash, crude, and tossable while still being functional for daily work.  but the Si is a really well engineered package, and if i can get some traction (i.e., snow tires for dirt work) i think it will out-handle the RS well enough, even on dirt, that i can make up any straight line difference due to wheelspin.

Fantastic cars. My co-driver and I won a RX national championship in PF in his a few  years ago. Well, he won, I filled the grid like usual. From that we did One Lap last year and we're doing it again this year after replacing the very tired stock suspension and going to 275's on all four corners. They're great, you'll have fun with this one. 

mazdeuce - Seth said:

Fantastic cars. My co-driver and I won a RX national championship in PF in his a few  years ago. Well, he won, I filled the grid like usual. From that we did One Lap last year and we're doing it again this year after replacing the very tired stock suspension and going to 275's on all four corners. They're great, you'll have fun with this one. 

oh for sure, i've been following Brian's blog/instagram/youtube channel very closely for the last few months to learn everything he's done and watch his progress.  he's literally mapping his way through everything i'd also like to accomplish with my own Si.  its very inspirational to me how he's managed to take things as far as he has on nearly stock equipment. 

plus, i think blue FA5's are just predisposed to awesomeness!

 My dream Honda is an FA5 Mugen Civic Si.

jj said:

Very nice. You did get the last of an era.  I went through this same thought process a few months ago. Just make it louder.

i drive my wife and son around in it alot - often on trips over 2 or 3 hours.  gotta keep it a bit livable, so despite the power temptations i'm not throwing a 3 inch exhaust on it.  maybe an intake at some point though.

N7Prime said:

 My dream Honda is an FA5 Mugen Civic Si.

those things STILL command a premium!  i would never pay for one but they're cool if you're a hondaphile.  mine would be an early gen NSX with a set of headers and race exhaust.

so the first thing i did when i got the car home was changed the oil, mostly just due to not knowing what's in there and wanting to be able to beat on it with confidence.

looking at the procedure....i have to take a wheel off?  splashguard off?  the filter is where?

this is, hands down, the worst oil filter location i've ever seen.  coming from a subaru, which is probably the easiest car on the planet to change the oil on (you can literally do it one-handed) this was a crappy surprise.  thank goodness the oil change intervals on this things are like 10k miles.  i don't want to do this more than once a year.

so i get it in the air and take all the crap off, and because the filter mount is directly over the axle boot i got a Form-A-Funnel to send the filter oil drippings out over the control arm.  the funnel worked awesome.  that was the only awesome part.

red circle is the filter mount.  unscrewing the filter off isn't so bad once you contort your arm up and over the steering rack, but snaking it out of the opening over the driveshaft was a trick, it barely fits.  i had pre-filled a new filter beforehand to go on,  and guess what?  yeah, dumped it all out, over everything, trying to get it in the opening and resorting to turning it sideways.  this covered the sides in oil.  so now i can't tighten the filter on because my gloves are slipping all over the filter   AAUUGH

whatever, its on there now, next time i do this i'll be good and beered up beforehand so i can laugh at myself instead of cursing

You're better prepared than me. I just flop a paper towel over the axle, let everything get oily and then wipe it up. It's a smidge easier in the Accord than the Civic, but it's the same basic contortions. I think aligning oil changes with tire changes/rotations is a good idea. Oh, and watch the oil level, K motors have a habit of swallowing it at odd intervals. Nothing for 3k miles, then a quart, then nothing for a while. Lots of theories on that. 

mazdeuce - Seth said:

You're better prepared than me. I just flop a paper towel over the axle, let everything get oily and then wipe it up. It's a smidge easier in the Accord than the Civic, but it's the same basic contortions. I think aligning oil changes with tire changes/rotations is a good idea. Oh, and watch the oil level, K motors have a habit of swallowing it at odd intervals. Nothing for 3k miles, then a quart, then nothing for a while. Lots of theories on that. 

we should buy some stock in kitty litter.  trust me, my level of prep ain't much better.

i've read from other sources what you said about the oil consumption as well but thanks for a good reminder.  coming from the subaru world, i'm used to checking the oil literally every fuel stop or sooner, so this K's always going to be topped off religiously.  i've noticed that unless i'm really in VTEC a lot, it actually uses more oil just farting down the highway at very light load than with me taking it through the gears in town.  personally, i think that has something to do with very light tension oil control rings that let these engines rev so freely but don't seal as well under small throttle openings.  

its really no big deal to me.  i keep a quart in the trunk and enjoy opening the hood and checking on things anyway.

next up, trailer hitch.  for bikes 'n stuff.

in typical fashion i went to install it and it took 4 hours longer than it was supposed to.

"mommy why does daddy say bad words when he keeps saying he likes to work on cars?"

to get clearance to raise the hitch up to the frame rail i had to remove 2 bolts from the midpipe to axleback flange.  first bolt, all good.  second one snapped.  this was also the bolt on the top of the pipe with just about zero clearance to work on.  with the axleback out of the way, i spent the next 3 hours destroying drill bits and knuckles trying to work the broken stud out.  rage quit and drank beer.

thankfully the Curt hitch went on perfectly - really well done kit.  hugs the rear bumper nicely and really beefy construction for a little class 2 unit.  had to trim a bit of a heat shield as well as a small section of the plastic rear diffuser.  should do nicely for mt. bike transport and possibly my teardrop camper once in a blue moon.

--------------

put the axleback back on with 1 bolt and limped it around that way for a couple days.  then i was putting the mudflaps on the back and accidentally realized i had a great vantage point to reach the other snapped stud and just hadn't realized it before.

the red mist overcame me and i was ready for battle once again.  i let the bolt stud know

i had to use the vice grips, and unfortunately i only had enough room for about 1/8th turn at a time so it was a long, stupid process.  but whatever, results are results and finally the exhaust was properly buttoned up again

big shoutout to the beautiful people at CRC and their kickass Freeze-Off penetrant that allowed me to levy proper justice on this evil bastard.  stuff works.

We certainly use oil on track in the Civic, but you're right, around town it's hit or miss and I suspect the oil consumption has different causes depending on what you're up to which is what makes it so hard to figure out. 

You must be the only person in the world who enjoys looking under the hood of an 8th gen. It's a jumble of plastic and automotive Tetris. I dread the day when we have to do real work on the engine I I suspect that we'll just drop it out the bottom to do anything significant. I re-timed the K20 in the RSX rally car with the engine in the car, that pretty much sucked, and the RSX is about half way between the Civic and the Accord room wise. I'm still hoping I stumble across this motor/trans for cheap so I can throw it in the Accord. 

I also have a blue 8th gen. Mine is a 2007 with about 100,000 more miles on it. Mainly due to the original owner commuting approximately 1.5 hours each way. 

Mazdeuce - Seth said:

You must be the only person in the world who enjoys looking under the hood of an 8th gen 

i owned a B5 audi A4 once, nothing scares me anymore. 

clutchsmoke said:

I also have a blue 8th gen. Mine is a 2007 with about 100,000 more miles on it. Mainly due to the original owner commuting approximately 1.5 hours each way. 

hey cool!  how's it held up for you?  these seem to be pretty tough cars.  it seems if you can get the clutch master cylinder sorted out, and deal with the crappy clearcoat, they generally run forever without asking for much in return.

here's some other minor crap i did.
new full grain leather shift boot in from Redline Goods.  so much better than the stock plastic vinyl filth that sounded like you were rustling the arm of someone's rain jacket every time you moved the shifter

hardwired my A119 dashcam.  i'm a bit dumb though and forgot that it sits right in the area the wipers don't hit (since they arc from opposite sides rather than side by side, unlike my last car) so picture quality suffers when the windshield is dirty.  too lazy to fix right now.

i have a Broadway 320mm convex rear view mirror panel and found that by mounting it upside down, it fits between the visors and shifts upward a bit and covers all the A119's status lights so its much less distracting.

spend $7 and get one of these.  Lisle 35260 fastener remover.  currently enjoying not breaking every single plastic fastener i touch.

Mine had/has some needs. Hrm.. I might have to start my own build thread so as to not clutter up yours!

The stock shift boot was completely trashed. That got replaced. The original floor mat had a hole worn through it and worn into the carpet at the brake and throttle. Solved with some 3D mats. Replaced the clutch master with one from an EM1 civic thereby eliminating the clutch delay valve. 

Shifter was really sloppy so installed a new shifter base and shift cables.

A/C is currently inop. I suspect it may only need to be shimmed. 

I'm planning on opening up the transmission and replacing 2nd and 3rd. Both work fine, but second does not like to be rushed. 

I found a really good deal via Costco on some Michelin Pilot Super sports last year and they are an excellent upgrade for this car. 

Aside from the wear and tear of 180,000 miles and a bit of neglect it runs well and everything works! 

Future plans are stiffer rear sway, koni yellows, header, tsx brakes, and a Ktuner to wake things up.

got a smoking deal on a lightly used local shock/spring combo.  the stock equipment was feeling tired, but i wanted to keep it as close to stock height as possible while upping the spring rate just a touch.  a popular answer to that quandry seems to be the Koni STR.T "orange" and Tein H-Tech springs.  it just so happened that someone 2 hours away had that exact combo with about 2,000 miles on it, so away i went.  a couple weekends later i had it on after an afternoon's wrenching.

an SPC camber bolt on each front knuckle rounds out the package.  its approximately a 3/4" drop all around:

compared to stock height the day i brought it home

my original goal for any aftermarket suspension when i got this car was to keep it within the realm of "OEM+", which is to say almost stock in appearance and drivability in daily use but a definite performance increase when pushed.  Honda offered a factory suspension kit when these cars were originally sold, through their HFP product line (Honda Factory Performance) which included other things like a sport muffler, body kit, etc.  i really wanted a set of those HFP springs.  the HFP kit is no longer sold, and hard to find, so this is my best aftermarket replication of the spring rates i wanted but with even better, modern Koni struts that will handle bumps great but also control the spring rate with ease.

stock spring rates: 200F / 230R
HFP spring rates: 215F / 270R
Tein H-Tech spring rates: 218F / 252R

so this is almost a replication of the HFP rates, and i can easily get more rear rotation with a bar to make up for the lack of rear rate if i really wanted to, but i think that won't be for a while as i keep learning the car.

installation was straightforward but lots of frustrating hang-ups.  the rear springs were tough to get in and out and the front struts ears were really tight on the hub so it was a lot of cursing and pry bar-ing to get the bolt holes lined up so i could get the camber bolts on.  and of course because the windshield is so cab-forward you have to remove the wipers and cowl trim to get at the front strut tops...probably the only car in the world you have to pull the wipers to change a strut.  it took about 6 hours total.

mmmm, gold is prettyyyy

as you can see the progressive coils bind almost immediately at ride height so you're on the primary coils most of the time.  

overall i'm very pleased.  you can absolutely feel how much less the rear end wallows, which was to be expected from stock equipment at 92k miles.  large dips and bumps are handled with so much less drama than the stock suspension.  i've been told they are about the same feel as a Koni Yellow on full soft.  definitely stiffer, but not disruptive or abusive for normal driving.  lots of fun when pushed.

final alignment numbers:

camber front left: -1.7
caster front left: 7.4

camber front right: -1.8
caster front right: 7.3

toe front: 0

camber rear left: -1.4
camber rear right: -1.9
toe rear: 0

i'm not thrilled about the right rear being .5 degree off but i doubt i'll notice.  if/when the day comes that i get some adjustable camber arms for the rear i'll even it out and calm my OCD jimmies for good.

Does your car not have the "doors" on the windshield cowl that lets you access the strut tops? Not that it's easy, but we were able to swap struts with some creative wrench use.

clutchsmoke said:

Mine had/has some needs. Hrm.. I might have to start my own build thread so as to not clutter up yours!

The stock shift boot was completely trashed. That got replaced. The original floor mat had a hole worn through it and worn into the carpet at the brake and throttle. Solved with some 3D mats. Replaced the clutch master with one from an EM1 civic thereby eliminating the clutch delay valve. 

Shifter was really sloppy so installed a new shifter base and shift cables.

A/C is currently inop. I suspect it may only need to be shimmed. 

I'm planning on opening up the transmission and replacing 2nd and 3rd. Both work fine, but second does not like to be rushed. 

I found a really good deal via Costco on some Michelin Pilot Super sports last year and they are an excellent upgrade for this car. 

Aside from the wear and tear of 180,000 miles and a bit of neglect it runs well and everything works! 

Future plans are stiffer rear sway, koni yellows, header, tsx brakes, and a Ktuner to wake things up.

that's a pretty good laundry list.   it seems like its more a matter of "when" not "if" with the CMC.  so far mine's OK but it would be nice to dump the delay valve.  as you can see i went through the same thing with the shift boot too...the factory one is so cheap its sad.  i got lucky and mine came with rubber mats, the stock fabric mats seem really thin.

jealous of your Pilot SS's, i'm stuck with fairly new Hankook Ventus concept2's right now and they suck out loud.  can't wait to get some decent summer rubber on here.

mazdeuce - Seth said:

Does your car not have the "doors" on the windshield cowl that lets you access the strut tops? Not that it's easy, but we were able to swap struts with some creative wrench use.

ha, we found out too late after we already yanked the cowl fairings.  i guess we could have done it that way but i did really  like having wide open access to everything.  it was a bit intimidating at first to pull all that plastic but after doing it once its not that bad.

I'll be watching this thread, as I love these things. A friend had one a few years back, and I loved driving that thing. High RPM pulls in it were such a blast! I actually went to buy one, but it was in between the switchover to the bigger engine AND the Japanese Tsunami had just hit. Since they were unavailable new, and all the used examples were expensive due to scarcity, I ended up with my Mazda 3. Good luck with it! 

The HFP stuff is actually not that great. You did good with your barely used setup. You... Wouldn't happen to have your stock stuff left over would you? My car is on Tokico Blues and they're... Not great. 

I've got a 2008 Si in the same blue.  I bought it three years ago from a very compulsive Honda dealer tech who put a lot of miles on it (190K) but took beyond excellent care of it.  It looked like it had 30K miles on it.   He pampered it and even stored it in the winter (I'm in Michigan).  I got it cheap because of the miles and I'm at 220K now and I've loved every mile.  It's mainly my winter car (I feel a little guilty about that, but him storing it will give me a lot more winters!) and I run it on steelies and Blizzaks until the snow melts.  I'm amazed how fast, fun, reliable, and just plain easy this car is.   And it revs to 8500RPM.   How many cars can do all that?

Carl

clutchsmoke said:

The HFP stuff is actually not that great. You did good with your barely used setup. You... Wouldn't happen to have your stock stuff left over would you? My car is on Tokico Blues and they're... Not great. 

sorry man, tossed the shocks and i'm keeping the springs.  if i'd have known i def would have sent them your way.

glad to hear i probably made out better than the HFP parts.