$2011 Challenge

I'm really just lacking tires (still room in budget). Concours is a matter of washing it, mostly. Drag will not be a problem.

Great points, though... makes it SEEM simple.

I think that's probably how AngryCorvair's Probe worked.

In reply to 93celicaGT2:

Angry has shown that it IS possible.

What I'm hoping to see one year is a major league KISS program. Just copy Andy's recipe for an STS Miata for whatever you own, and you will probably top 5 in the autocross. Knowing that it's almost the same recipe for his CSP car, and you can top 1.

Per may correct me, but IMHO, a properly sorted CSP Miata would take FTD. And reading results from the Solo II pages- a properly sorted ST Civic with R tires would be pretty close, too.

If you want to challenge a DD and be competetive, go check the Solo II championships for ideas. And remember there are cheap sources of parts if you are creative in adapting.

One does not need a massive turbo or big v8 swap to win. May not be as interesting, but for a one person show- it's a lot more possible.

Finally- it's quite interesting how much you can take out with a wrench for one weekend....

Eric

a properly sorted CSP Miata would take FTD.

...unless the Wreck Racing Miata or some guys in a suck-vette show up. Seriously dude. I don't know how many years it's been since you've been to the challenge, but the bar is being significantly raised every year.

Top 5? Maybe. 1st? Probably not. My $.02.

PS: In order to be in the top 10 in the drags this year, your time had to start with a "10,11, or 12."

poopshovel wrote:

a properly sorted CSP Miata would take FTD.

...unless the Wreck Racing Miata or some guys in a suck-vette show up. Seriously dude. I don't know how many years it's been since you've been to the challenge, but the bar is being significantly raised every year. Top 5, probably. 1st, probably not. My $.02.

Disagree. I know I've not been there for 6 years. But I saw the Wreck run videos, and do honestly believe that a decent CSP Miata would have beaten it. Moreso if challenge legal stripping could be done in addition to being CSP.

And I do agree that the bar is being raised every year.

I'm not saying that the cars are bad, BTW. I'm just saying that a well sorted car is better, that's all.

poopshovel wrote: PS: In order to be in the top 10 in the drags this year, your time had to start with a "10,11, or 12."

top 10 overall- FTD autocross and 15 second drag + a very clean car.

(7th overall was a 33.9 sec autocross + 14.05 sec drag- that was 1.6 sec off the FTD, and 20pt concours)

I'm just trying to point out that an autocross focused project that's pretty quick can top 10 overall.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to 93celicaGT2: Angry has shown that it IS possible.

i feel the love, but am not sure i deserve it. out of 62 cars sat the '06 event, the PGT placed 16th in the autocross (would've been better if Al had driven all five runs instead of just the last one), ran 15.12 in the drags, and had a pretty poor concours score because of the full interior, lack of theme, etc. overall finished 31st. at the time it was a very clean DD.

From what I saw, they have to do all three things really well to be a top 10 car. Two out of three won't get it when well sorted, great looking cars show up and have giant turbos or v8s or jeeps that handle or when subie powered wartburgs aren't the most outlandish thing to show up. I had a blast, And recommend it to anyone, but I wouldn't count on a well prepped dd car landing in the top 10, or 15.

AngryCorvair wrote: In reply to sanyarcosean: or buy the V8 CRX from Denny...

go onnnn...

oldtin wrote: From what I saw, they have to do all three things really well to be a top 10 car. Two out of three won't get it when well sorted, great looking cars show up and have giant turbos or v8s or jeeps that handle or when subie powered wartburgs aren't the most outlandish thing to show up. I had a blast, And recommend it to anyone, but I wouldn't count on a well prepped dd car landing in the top 10, or 15.

Look at the results a little closer, then.

2/3 really well, the 3rd darned well, and top 10. Like I posted- if you could have done almost FTD, and a 15 second drag- a really clean car would have netted you 7th.

No idea why I bring this up, as the odds of me being in Florida in October is very, very thin... But I like to see others give it a shot.

Eric

I don't know if this question is too big a jump from the topic, but talk about what it takes to be competitive started me thinking about the scoring system currently in place.

I have done two Challenges 2004 and 2009, and the scoring changed since 04. I can't get my head around whether or not the change was good or bad, and if there was discussion about the difference between the two methods, I missed it.

The original system took the drag times and the autocross times separately and assigned a percentile to each and then added the percentiles together, plus concourse to get the total. The current system adds the 2 times together and then assigns a percentile to the total. My question is, does the new system favor one of the two events? It seems to me that the potential variance in time in the autocross is greater than in the drags. On the other hand as you get closer to the top of the leader board fractions of a second become more precious in both events. I am curious to hear opinions on what is actually the best and most fair way to compare the cars. I know that no system would please everyone, and in the grand scheme of things, it probably doesn't matter. It certainly doesn't impact whether I would build a car or not, or even what kind of car I would build, but I am curious if this is really the best way to rank the competitors. I think that I favor a system that would assign points for each place in each event and add the totals together to get an overall score. To some extent, I believe that is pretty close to the earlier method.

If I remember correctly the year that the yellow 280zx won the white RX7 was third, but would have won had the next year's scoring system been used, and in fact it came back the next year and did win. So the scoring system does matter, but what system most accurately crowns the best triathlete?

Where are the detailed results posted?

In reply to Sofa King:

I've run a few years, where the dynamic scoring system was in place. What it does encourage (IMHO), is balance. Can you take another 0.1s off the autocross or the drags more cheaply. I like it

SVreX wrote: Where are the detailed results posted?

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/media/img/events/recap/2010%20CHALLENGE%20RESULTS%20FOR%20POST.pdf

In reply to Sofa King:

Even though I've not been back since 2004, I do like the current scoring- the old one gave a lot of weight to a monster drag car- a 10 sec drag car vs a 15 second drag car was 100 vs. 75 points. And it would be virtually impossible to make that difference up in a 30-40 second autocross.

Since the magazine is more an autocross/road race vs. drag race- making it more an autocross score I think is better.

Now, my hypothetical 15 second drag car can top 10 with a fast enough autocross.

What cars were in the top 10 for the concours? Were there any "Very clean daily driver" types?

MrJoshua wrote: What cars were in the top 10 for the concours? Were there any "Very clean daily driver" types?

Yes, Pseudosport's turbo Miata has a "full" interior. I think he pulled out the stereo but it is mostly intact. He was daily driving it for awhile. He got top 10 concourse in '09, top 5 autocross, and runs in the high 13's 1/4 mile.

There were others but I can't recall. No reason you can't but it is another 50-100 lbs you have to carry around.

miatame wrote:

MrJoshua wrote: What cars were in the top 10 for the concours? Were there any "Very clean daily driver" types?

Yes, Pseudosport's turbo Miata has a "full" interior. I think he pulled out the stereo but it is mostly intact. He was daily driving it for awhile. He got top 10 concourse in '09, top 5 autocross, and runs in the high 13's 1/4 mile. There were others but I can't recall. No reason you can't but it is another 50-100 lbs you have to carry around.

I am really curious about this year (10). There was a significant step up in the concours prep this year.

For big euro stuff there was my e28 and TB's Saab 9000. Mine had a full interior - nice exterior with oktoberfest/bavarian graphics - 26th in concours -granted it was too scruffy under the hood and lost a bunch of points there and had the wrong tires. It was very comfy on the 2400 mile round trip though and under a grand. Then again I had no illusions of it being any kind of contender so I just enjoyed the event and didn't really give the points calculations much of a thought. My thinking though is that a 15 sec. drag car wasn't enough to be near the ftd on the autocross. Were there 15 sec drag cars in the :33s on the autocross?

In reply to oldtin:

My car went 15.1 and 34.1. Both times had much room for improvement with a decent tune and an alignment. Silver turbo miata with waaaaay to much fuel. Ian swears it should have beat the GaTech car if it had delivered even power all the way around the track. Not sure if I believe it, but we will see next year.

^^^ Those are nice times. Hopefully I'll bring something next year that'll be a little more challenge worthy.

oldtin wrote: ^^^ Those are nice times. Hopefully I'll bring something next year that'll be a little more challenge worthy.

I have good geometry and light weight on my side. I also have race tires and a really really stiff shock and spring combo. Your car has lots of potential. Nitrous for the drags, lots and lots of spring and shocks that will survive for a few autocross runs, and biiiiiiiiiig fat autocross wheel and tire setup and you are a pretty good contender. That car looks good. I liked it a lot!

In reply to alfadriver:

I agree with you that the old system would have skewed things too much in favor of the drags. 5 seconds in the drags is a larger percentage than 5 seconds in the autocross. I was thinking something more in the line of a set number of points for first, second, third etc. in each event. Total points wins. That way you are competing against the other competitors and not really against time. Where I am not sure if my idea works, is in an event where a car is head and shoulders above the next car, it might not get the advantage that it deserves.

That's similar to the way Formula Hybrid used to be scored (based off of time). First place got X number of points, and based on how far behind you were from them, a certain number of points were deducted. That's all well and good, until first place is so far ahead (like A&M was in '09) that there's a massive discrepancy in points. On one hand, it's unfair in that second place shouldn't be so far behind, but it is more realistic when they're so soundly whooped up on.

alfadriver wrote:

SVreX wrote: Where are the detailed results posted?

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/media/img/events/recap/2010%20CHALLENGE%20RESULTS%20FOR%20POST.pdf

That link is no good.