$2017 Challenge Rules and Date Announced

In reply to Tom Suddard:

Well, E36 M3. Gonna have to cut out the 1.75 .095 dom tubing and get my ass to the home Depot black Friday sale.

Tom Suddard wrote: In reply to patgizz: Totally agree. That's why all cages have to be at least 4x4 pressure treated lumber this year, or 6x6 plain wood. For the children.

Do we have to use 1/2" galvanized carriage bolts or will lag screws suffice?

In reply to minivan_racer:

There's a huge difference between a protest to be reviewed by the organisers and a claim rule. I thought there always had been some sort of similar protest arrangement, but that it had rarely, if ever, been used.

I get that, but I brought it up during a discussion where most agreed any type of rule where an entrant could pay to try and get another challenger dq'd was shunned universally. Apparently I'm getting re-crucified for admitting I said it.

In reply to minivan_racer:

Nobody is crucifying you. Or weren't you just trying to be overly dramatic?

You said claim rule. I said no.

There has always been a protest rule. That's completely different.

not to stoke flames or anything, but i think a claim rule would be awesome. make the claim 3X the challenge budget for the year. if someones car is this year is just too good for anyone else to compete next year it can be bought out of next years competition. and since buying it costs 3x the budget it cant just be entered in next years challenge by the buyer.....

and it makes it possible to buy some really cool cars.... :)

You'd still see people back out. One could not touch the engineering and labor that went into my car for that. I would consider letting it go for 10k. Otherwise it's like saying my time and skill are worthless

I guarantee you the best cars and builders would all bail. I don't even have to consult them to know that. I wouldn't even think twice about it, knowing that someone could claim my skill and time for 2-3 grand(if you use your recoup wisely you have 3k to spend plus tires and exempt safety items). Including recoup, exempt safety items and my 4 nt01 tires you're giving me 2 grand for 2 years and countless hours of building, engineering, and development.

Safe to say i think any sort of claim rule would be shot down

In reply to itsarebuild:

I agree with Pat but if you're really interested I have a Q45 for you.

It really was a joke. That's what :p means. Mostly because I've spent at least 200 hours on the Fiata graft alone. And no one in their right mind would spend 6k on it.....

SVreX wrote: There has always been a protest rule. That's completely different.

That is what has been lost on me apparently. I thought the $50 protest was a new thing.

Okay, it took longer than expected, but here's a proposed Standardized Challenge Budget Spreadsheet (Officially abbreviated as "Standard BS").

This is not yet official. I want you all to review it and let me know what you think. Please let me know what you think, and what changes are needed, before 5pm tomorrow.

Anyway, here's the blank sheet. It has a few protected cells so y'all don't screw it up.

And here's one I filled out with a Trooper build. It doesn't have any protected cells, so you can see how it all works.

I've been staring at numbers for too long, and I'm sure I've missed something. Please let me know if this sheet will work for you by commenting here or emailing me at Tom@grassrootsmotorsports.com

Thanks.

Two tabs of BS? Just want to point out that is twice as much BS as I thought.

All kidding aside, these are a good start. Two things I would ask you to consider:

1. The recoup tab (and specifically the trooper example) makes it look like you can recoup parts at FMV if you don't actually sell them. We have discussed that on the forum before, and without giving my position let me just say that discussion is passionate.
2. On the purchases tab, I have in the past used a similar column for exempt (y/n), but I shifted to instead doing a exempt dollar amount in that column. Reason is I often had two parts on one receipt, and one was exempt and the other wasn't. Let's say you buy $35 bushings and $15 brake lines at the same time. It makes more sense to me to list the line at $50 and $15 of that exempt than it does for me to list two lines that split the receipt. (Though I agree the end result is the same).

Thats pretty close to the one i made. I have the price and then another column for net budget effect instead of a check box for budget exempt. Safety/4 tires went in net column at $0

I don't like it; not really going to work for me.

Stampie wrote: For the TLDR crowd, tb used to be an shiny happy person but he's trying to be better and just wants everyone work together.

In reply to Stampie:

Every diet needs a cheat day

^^^ Damn, I thought that was being nice and polite! Tom sincerely wants honest feedback!

I think that he missed the mark on this one; he even admits to knowing how and why it went sideways on him. I will, most likely, make an earnest effort to comply to the best of my abilities, although I make no promises...

inner dialogue be the bigger person be the bigger person. inner dialogue

TB, I'm sorry it won't work for you. I'm not aware of how and why it went sideways on me.

Could you let me know? This public discussion opportunity isn't for complaining, it's for feedback.

So, what needs to be changed, and why?

And for those wondering "why go to a standard budget sheet?" The answer is simple: we'll be able to write more about your cars, and better police budget infractions. Those are goals that I think we all share.

Thanks for working with me, everybody.

And yes, some parts (like the Y/N for exempt column) are a tad unnecessary for our experienced veterans. However, another purpose of this sheet is to assist newcomers with figuring out what their budget is.

Oh, one other question I got: Returning cars and previous budgets.

In a perfect world, every budget every year would be complete. It's tough at the event for competitors to look at your budget sheet and see references to "$2013 Budget Build Book" when they're wondering where your parts came from. It also slows us down immensely while we're writing the story.

My hope is that this budget sheet becomes a living document, and an updated version (in full) is presented with your car at every Challenge. Made a few changes from one year to the next? Just update the budget sheet and bring it back in full.

However, I know I'll be chased out of town by a pitchfork-wielding mob if I say "Recreate your 15-year-old napkin-sketched budget from scratch immediately." So I'll say "Please move towards including your full budget each year."

If anybody needs to know what they did a few years ago, we have all of your build books filed and would be happy to let you know what's in them.

Sorry, Tom. I really wasn't trying to be mean so I just wanted to answer your original post.

I thought that you were exasperated and dissatisfied with it when you stated that you had been looking at numbers too long and were certain that it wasn't complete. I took that as knowing it was hard to see the forest for all of the trees... I didn't mean to sound insulting or a complaint, I thought I was commiserating about the difficulty of the task at hand.

Mostly, I thought it was inelegant. Perhaps the document is trying too hard to accomplish too much? I don't have a succinct answer really I tried to give straightforward feedback. I would be ok with individuals submitting information as they see fit and striving for simplicity versus regulation.

Your point about accessibility and clarity for newcomers is well taken and I understand that standardizing things can help some people on both sides of the issue.

I really will do my best to get everything straight in the form but there are always grey areas and minutiae that increase with the amount of information required.

You know that I want to be friends. I apologize for my rudeness and offending you, it really wasn't my intent. Moving forward I will try harder to be more considerate and be clear that I am always attempting to work together with you and be more constructive.

I feel bad that once again I screwed up and tried to be a part of the group but only came across as a contrarian shiny happy person.

My apology to Tom is sincere, but I also want to make it clear that I am sorry to anyone else that I mistakenly offended.

I'm having trouble being clear and seem to be misunderstanding stuff so I think I should just shut up and walk away before I irrevocably offend everyone.

It's okay TB–I totally understand.

If you can think of a way to improve it, please let me know.

Overall, very good job!

May I suggest that Receipt #1 (Cell A9) be replaced with "Car Purchase", and Cell E9 (Shipping $ for car) be locked at $0. According to the rules, the car purchase is the only item that does not include shipping.

Thanks, Paul. And thanks, everyone, for the input on this.