$2017 Challenge Rules and Date Announced

Did I miss the link for the mandated cost worksheet?

Oh, one other thing:

Please don't keep secrets from us! Being intentionally vague about your build makes answering questions exceedingly difficult.

Seriously. We're journalists. We understand embargoes, and pretty much every company in our industry uses them. We know a lot of cool stuff about a lot of cool cars and parts, but we can't tell you yet because those are the rules of the game.

Similarly, we need to know about your radical, loophole-exploiting Challenge build before it arrives at the event. Having a proper entry list lets us anticipate editorial needs and solve safety and rule issues before they happen.

You can even embargo the information–just put at the top of any correspondence with us "Embargoed until the event" or whenever you'd like it to be made public. We promise not to tell anybody, even our concours judges, until that date. We get that you want to make a splash and surprise people, but our event staff hates surprises.

Stampie wrote: Warning loophole content ahead ... can one team register two cars?

Yes, they can, though technically each car will be campaigned by a different team in our database. Example: PACC Racing and PACC Racing 2.

But I think I just closed your loophole, anyway. Sorry!

itsarebuild wrote: Did I miss the link for the mandated cost worksheet?

Tom said it would be up by Monday.

patgizz wrote: Thanks for the alcohol at the track rule. The factory framerails or equivalent unibody stuff looks new(but simiar had been there in the past with the "to acheive some sort of crazy drivetrain swap caveat"). I'll give an example- would roadkill's nascarlo, if under 2k, not be eligible because the frame rails are rectangular tubes? That is as specific as i will get with our plans, but i can stop building now if thats this sends things into exhibition. It would be to facilitate a complete drivetrain reconfiguration that could not use the original suspension or framerails to accomplish because transmission and engine and axle would be trying to occupy those spaces currently occupied by the factory frame.

Email Rick Goolsby and we'll make a ruling on your build. These kinds of cars will be handled on a case-by-case basis, but you're probably in the clear.

In reply to Tom Suddard:

Tom, do you want a copy of the excel sheet I've been using for years? Calculates the recoup per purchase very accurately and cleanly.

Tom Suddard wrote: Oh, one other thing: Please don't keep secrets from us! Being intentionally vague about your build makes answering questions exceedingly difficult.

Is there a process for this?

I have already spoken to a staff member about something really crazy, and received tacit verbal approval. Do I need to do more than that?

SVreX wrote:

Robbie wrote: Running more than 4 tires just got a lot harder.

Yeah, I know that particular item caused a lot of contortions. Didn't seem to be a good way to accomplish what they were trying to accomplish. Changing the rule from "first 4 free" to "cheapest 4 free" is a rather elegant solution. It's exactly backwards to what most of us competitors would calculate, but accomplishes the goal quite well.

Have to keep it interesting. I like elegant solutions that level the playing field.

In the past, teams with "honest" interpretations of our optimistic tire rule were at a disadvantage compared to teams of, well, let's say "racers."

SVreX wrote:

Tom Suddard wrote: Oh, one other thing: Please don't keep secrets from us! Being intentionally vague about your build makes answering questions exceedingly difficult.

Is there a process for this? I have already spoken to a staff member about something really crazy, and received tacit verbal approval. Do I need to do more than that?

Just to be safe, send Rick an email just so we're all on the same page.

Our goal with this case-by-case basis stuff, by the way, isn't to quietly exclude competitors. It's to make sure we can talk to you and give you any guidance you'll need to get through tech.

SVrex said: In reply to Tom Suddard: Tom, do you want a copy of the excel sheet I've been using for years? Calculates the recoup per purchase very accurately and cleanly.

That would be awesome. Thank you.

In reply to Tom Suddard:

How did you post as me??? (1:18 post)

That's a little disturbing!

Sorry, the "Post as SVreX" button is right next to my "Require all competitors use tires from Pep Boys" button on my dashboard. My bad!

Now you have me wondering what kinds of things I've said that I never really said!

I emailed you that spreadsheet, but I seem to have 5 different email addresses for you. Hopefully I got the right one- let me know if you got it.

Tom Suddard wrote:

SVreX wrote:

Robbie wrote: Running more than 4 tires just got a lot harder.

Yeah, I know that particular item caused a lot of contortions. Didn't seem to be a good way to accomplish what they were trying to accomplish. Changing the rule from "first 4 free" to "cheapest 4 free" is a rather elegant solution. It's exactly backwards to what most of us competitors would calculate, but accomplishes the goal quite well.

Have to keep it interesting. I like elegant solutions that level the playing field. In the past, teams with "honest" interpretations of our optimistic tire rule were at a disadvantage compared to teams of, well, let's say "racers."

I'll give you a concrete example on the tires. I was planning on buying 6 tires. 4 autocross and 2 drag. I was also planning on using two tires and wheels that came with my truck on the front for the drags. Would those two count towards the 4 free tires or be exempt since I bought them in the purchase price of the truck?

Challenge Rules said: These safety items are budget-exempt: seat belt or harness; fire extinguisher; roll bar padding; wheel lugs, studs and bolts, and your first four tires. Brake friction materials, lines, calipers, master cylinders, rotors and drums may be replaced with fresh ones that are functional duplicates. The purpose of this rule is to allow for fresh brake components, not to allow for budget shenanigans. For example, original brake parts cannot be sold and then re-bought to take advantage of this allowance. “First four tires” is defined as the four least expensive tires on your budget sheet.

EDITED: See a few posts down.

In reply to Tom Suddard:

That sounds like a loophole.

So, the 4 cheapest tires, UNLESS those tires were included in the purchase of the car?

I disagree with you- the tires ARE on the budget sheet. They are on the line that says "Car purchase". How about tires that came with a parts car?

SVreX wrote: In reply to Tom Suddard: That sounds like a loophole. So, the 4 cheapest tires, UNLESS those tires were included in the purchase of the car? I disagree with you- the tires ARE on the budget sheet. They are on the line that says "Car purchase". How about tires that came with a parts car?

Definitely need to pull my add selling my purple Q45 now since it came with new RA-1. Can still buy 4 new tires and keep them free. Unless I can find a car that comes with drag slicks or Hoosiers.

I'll read the rules after work today so I can comment better on any loopholes that I would like to expose.

Edit: The tire rule is the same as it was in $2016.

Isn't that kind of counter to what the original intent of the tire rule was, back when it first happened after the budget-free kumhos?

Just about every car is going to come with tires. I was planning to use them on the front of my RWD vehicle based on safety, vs running the AX tires on the front.

Maybe I'm wrong, but can we take a minute to think through the implications a bit more?

Tom Suddard wrote: Sorry, the "Post as SVreX" button is right next to my "Require all competitors use tires from Pep Boys" button on my dashboard. My bad!

My $50 WalMartian travel specials will outrun those PerpBoy specials

You know, everybody has valid points.

Let me talk to some regulars, talk to some of the other staff, and talk to my cat. I'll have an answer for you all in the morning.

Tom Suddard wrote: Fine, you've convinced me. I'm updating my original post to reflect the convincing. Tires that came on the car are considered to be on the budget sheet. This means that if you use them, odds are they're your four cheapest tires, and they're the free set.

Sounds fair, I might go back to the concept of new A7's in the front and new Drag radials in the rear.

Everything looks really good, looking forward to seeing everyone again next year.

Really like the clarification with the budget recoup and the build books.

I don't think it runs counter at all.

The point is 4 good, safe, budget free tires. You can use anything you want to.

But if you use more than 4 at the event, the additional tires are NOT budget exempt.

And, you can't charge your most expensive tires as the "free" ones". If you happen upon a nice set of free tires, congratulations! Use them. They are free. But if you buy any more, they are not free.

The rule works well as written. But the interpretation should not introduce 2 additidonal free tires, just because they came on the car.

The cheapest tires came on the car. Use them if you want to. Those are your free ones.

OK, how about the free set of (4) slicks that was given to me at a previous challenge? They were race take-offs and offered to multiple people. What about when someone else legitimately has the same scenario? So now I need to figure out a FMV of the used all seasons that came on the truck I bought? That just seems out of the intention of the rule. I'm not sure what the wording should be, but maybe the cheapest of the tires that didn't come on the vehicle, unless it came with non-dot tires? That way, if someone gets a vehicle with some sticky street legals as part of their purchase and can still buy a set of drags, well, so be it, well bought.

again, not 100% sure how I feel about it yet, lets just take a minute to think through the permutations.