A tragic reminder that our passion for cars can sometimes be very dangerous

mazdeuce - Seth said:

How do you tell a new student that has worked to become successful and purchased their dream 911 GT3 or Z06 Corvette that they need to go home and buy something slower?

I walked into a doctors office wearing a Skip Barber Racing School shirt once. The doctor said that he was thinking about getting into racing and had just signed up for his first track day. He asked me about my experiences. I told him that I had a Spec Miata, and then I went on to extoll the virtues of Miatas as track cars: Cheap to buy, easy on consumables, great handling but not so fast that you can get in too much trouble. Basically, great cars for learning and growing on the track.

Then he said, "I just bought a Ferrari Challenge car."

^Apologies for the screwy formatting. I can't figure out how that happened, nor can I seem to correct it.

How do you tell them that?

Somebody who's worked that hard to attain anything should know that there's a right and wrong way to do something.

Would you start investing with 100% of your net worth on your first day?

Would you start in the gym by deadlifting your maximum with no training?

Would you try to start learning photography with the most advanced and complex tools available?

Would you try to learn to shoot a gun starting off with a 10mm?

The possibilities go on. I'd tell him to put the z06 in the garage, get the miata, then come back in a year. The same way I tell folks to start with their iPhone. Or a .22. That's how you tell em to back up. It's not a failure to have the nice toys. But it takes time to get good.

I spent a lot of years in the right seat of cars at a few of the fastest tracks in the country. It isn't that cars are getting faster - there were always fast cars - hell, they are safer than they ever were. People used to show up in turbo 911s from the 80s, or those old Camaros with the seat belt attached to the door... and you could always be going 150 in anything at Watkins Glen. Including horrors like a homemade freaking Lotus 7 clone with sharp edges everywhere or a fiberglass Daytona knockoff. I've been in some really sketchy E36 M3 going fast. And I've been bashed around pretty good in a couple of them too.    

I'll hop right in your modern, snazzy Ferrari rocketship ... I like helping people get to go fast and it doesn't matter if you crash in a Miata or a Ferrari you can still get berkeleyed up pretty bad at 40 mph. It's like rock climbing - if you fall from anything over 30 feet you're berkeleyed. It might as well be 10000. But, I want to know you take this E36 M3 seriously before we roll. I have refused to ride with people after interviewing them because I didn't get a good vibe (and I'm a judgemental prick sometimes too). Aside from vetting a student's attitude though- E36 M3 happens. Buy the ticket, take the ride. None of us are getting out of here alive anyway. 

What has changed the most IMO is the immense popularity of track days and the lower bar of entry. Any idiot with $300 can take it to the track and there is competition for his dollars so nobody gets turned away. It wasn't so long ago that if you didn't post mark your envelope the day an event was announced you couldn't get in and there weren't any more events for weeks or months. There were a couple thousand drivers in the whole country doing this stuff. I used to have to front thousands in entry fees in February to make sure I could still be driving in September. There are so many zillions of people doing it now it's like a real tourist thing. Now, if you get banned from one club for being a jackwad this Saturday you can be at a different event the very next weekend. When it was smaller - you could get branded a jackwad and no matter when you sent in your app... it went in the garbage. That ship has sailed. No one asks if your heart is strong enough for sex like you have to do to get Viagra either... there are some seriously fat old berkeleys checking a day at the Glen off their bucket list without so much as a check-up. My inbox is perpetually full of "Come instruct for us" offers because they want to add more students or are short of bodies to get in the right seat for the students they already agreed to. No one is even asking me for my qualifications anymore - maybe that is because of reputation but I expect, it's more like desperation. Someone would atleast ask to see my competition license or for a reference or two. The maths go something like ... Way more customers + less oversight = more crashes. 

I don't know what to do about that - so I went racing back in 2009 and don't bother with HPDE or even race school instruction much anymore. It's probably been 2 years since I sat in anyone's car but my own. They didn't much like us using the instructor group as race practice anyway so everyone is happier ;)

In reply to Woody :

Easy Solution, the more HP you have the higher entry fee.

In reply to Woody :

And full disclosure, I started on track in a 556hp station wagon and it took me me a handful of events to realize that was a mistake, and I STILL did One Lap in it after that realization. I'm very much the pot calling the kettle black.

I don't have an answer. 

trigun7469 said:

In reply to Woody :

Easy Solution, the more HP you have the higher entry fee.

(Stock engine HP / 15 )^2 * ( 1 + # of non-stock forced induction devices)

In reply to Blaise :

Or in the case of a Dr: "Would you jump into brain surgery without doing an internship first?"

I had a good friend pass away, and his family was looking to sell his Z06, which he tracked regularly.  I even shocked my wife when I passed on the car, because between the deal offered, and the sentimental value of the car.  I drive a Miata.  Common sense should tell you that you don't swap from a Cessna to F-22.  Unfortunately, common sense isn't.  

In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker :

An '80's 911 Turbo is a handful, period.  But it's nowhere near as fast as the modern 911 Turbo, not even close.  Hell, a 15 year old 996 Turbo would blow it into the weeds, let alone a late model one.

I get your point, I don't want to be involved in an off in any car, at any speed.  That said, you can't deny that the faster you're going, the harder that hit is going to be and the more likely you're going to be seriously injured...

In reply to docwyte :

Cars are on average faster but they are also more capable and safer too. A trip into the tire wall in an 80's Porsche was pretty easy for a lot of people to achieve - and they called it the widowmaker for the fatalities not the spins... I'd feel a lot safer taking a faster hit in a new 99x than anything built before 2000. They are even hard to spin these days. Of all the crashes I've seen over the years - very few in the last decade have lead to any serious injury at all. But there sure are more of them than there used to be. 

That whole thing aside... I was more making the point that it isn't so much the capability of the cars causing the trouble. It's the sheer volume of students raising the number of incidents - probably in something directly proportional to the increase in available track days and number of participants.

Even so, we don't hear a lot of stories like this one because there really aren't that many of them. It's still a pretty safe way to spend a weekend even if you don't bring the car home with you.

docwyte said:

In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker :

An '80's 911 Turbo is a handful, period.  But it's nowhere near as fast as the modern 911 Turbo, not even close.  Hell, a 15 year old 996 Turbo would blow it into the weeds, let alone a late model one.

I get your point, I don't want to be involved in an off in any car, at any speed.  That said, you can't deny that the faster you're going, the harder that hit is going to be and the more likely you're going to be seriously injured...

This times a lot. Look at production lap records and Lightning laps events over the years. A lot of it comes down to tire compounds as well, but cars are A LOT faster than they were for a lot cheaper. Look at a base model c7 corvette for that matter!

I would love some more "large kart tracks" nearby. I'm honestly pretty intimidated by the east coast tracks I've sampled. The back straight on Road Atlanta isn't really fun (I mean, it's a straight away...) and sketches me out pretty badly. I never got into those kinds of speeds at Sonoma or Buttonwillow. Barber was pretty good, but I wouldn't mind lower risk situations.

pimpm3 said:

As some of you know I brought my new to me m3 to a PCA driver education event this past weekend.  The event started out well for everyone involved.  Friday was an instructor school and two of my friends got their instructor ticket.  Saturday's sessions went smoothly despite the rain, I got five sessions in personally and really got acquainted with my new car.

Tragically during the blue run groups last session of the day a car went off at turn one.  I was in the paddock diagnosing a misfire when I noticed the sudden silence, which I knew was a bad sign.  A few minutes later the blue group cars pulled back into the paddock after the red flag shut down the session.

The track's ambulance was visible by turn one but no one knew what was going on.   As we were discussing the worsening scenario a police car arrived.  Not good.

Shortly thereafter a life flight helicopter arrowed in from the east.  It circled once and landed on the track near the damaged Porsche.  It was terrible not knowing what happened which let to rampant speculation. 

Was the car a blue solo driver or was there an instructor in the car as well?  As we all fretted over the goings on at the end of the track we collectively had a gut check moment, it could just have easily been any one of us.

I'm the Regional Executive of the Buccaneer Region SCCA and our region owns Roebling Road Raceway.  I'm also extremely sad to hear someone passed away at our track, whether it's on the track or in their camper. It's not the first time or the last time unfortunately, but we always try to learn as much as possible about what happened, how it happened, and what we can to to reduce the recurrence and/or hazards involved. Roebling Road has more runoff area and fewer hazards than many tracks, but no track can be built to avoid every possible scenario.  The event was run and insured by PCA, who runs some of the best organized and safest events around.

Separately, I do have more access than average to information about the event Saturday, but you'll understand that I'm not in a position to be able to share most of it.  I do want to share that our Track Manager was able to talk to the PCA representative after the instructor was out of surgery on Sunday.  I was told that while he did have several broken bones and other injuries, he is expected to make a full recovery.

djsilver said:

  I do want to share that our Track Manager was able to talk to the PCA representative after the instructor was out of surgery on Sunday.  I was told that while he did have several broken bones and other injuries, he is expected to make a full recovery.

Glad to hear that.

Vehicle structures have become much more robust in the last 20 years. Additionally, airbags have become much more robust.  Protecting 100+mph accidents are a near impossibility, but I am relatively certain that the advances which have reduced traffic fatalities are at least helping some on the track. The comments about higher numbers and lower bars are very relevant and are likely based in reality.

With tech advances, I wouldnt be surprised to see a move to instructors coaching via headset watching an in-car video feed with a data display in the next 10 years. Would be surprised if no one was working on making just such a system commercially viable. Might be an interesting tech startup plan for someone if they can get the costs down and work renting the system for events. I can imagine the building at summit point with instructors at all the tables with headsets and laptops, plus the data feed could be used to enhance instruction. Start off with safe driving (lines/smooth), then work to time reduction. 

djsilver said:

...he is expected to make a full recovery.

That's great to hear!

I'm amazed at how quickly cars are getting faster.  When the Porsche Experience Center opened here in 2015, the lineup of cars were exciting to drive but only the 911 Turbo intimidating to drive hard.  Two years later, the move to turbocharging in all 991.2s and 918s has made the cars quick enough that the short straights feel so short there's no longer time for a student to catch their breath between technical sections.  The added speed adds to the mental load for a novice driver and decreases the margin for error.  I'm curious how those instructors feel about that.

frenchyd said:

If you race a formula car, Formula Ford, Formula Jr, Formula V, etc don’t have room for instructors.  Yet somehow they manage. 

Perhaps an instructor in the car is a risk that shouldn’t be taken?  

At the BMW Performance Center, instructors sit in cars at key spots on track and give guidance to students via handsets over a shared radio channel.  It's effective for a small group on track but may be difficult for a large run group.

trigun7469 said:

In reply to Woody :

Easy Solution, the more HP you have the higher entry fee.

1$ per horsepower? Sounds good, but the guy with the viper or GT3 likely has more money than sense, or talent. 

Driven5 said:

djsilver said:

...he is expected to make a full recovery.

That's great to hear!

Sweet.  If he is married, I bet his wife will encourage him to retire.   Same applies if the instructor is a female.   

djsilver, can you comment on what sort of additional safety equipment (if any) was installed in the car?

djsilver said:

I was told that while he did have several broken bones and other injuries, he is expected to make a full recovery.

I'm very glad to hear that.

docwyte said:

djsilver, can you comment on what sort of additional safety equipment (if any) was installed in the car?

Having had intimate knowledge of a car that was involved in a fatal accident at Pocono (and a good friend was lost) I can say with some surety that no one should comment on anything like that at this point. Even if deemed an accident and no charges are filed by the DA there are still the families of both parties that have the option to seek legal action. Sucks but it is the way it is these days. 

Now days with FPV systems for drones and remote control aircraft it seems like it would be somewhat trivially cheap to setup a camera setup even with telemetry overlay that would allow an instructor to be a bug in the ear of a student and also could provide invaluable video with the instructor messages as well to a student after the fact.

If you can remote control a drone wing flying miles away from you, you can narrate instructions to someone via cameras I would think. I would also think that if a track day provider was able to do this enmasse they could sort of police the entire field more easily even setting boundaries for events in terms of safe speeds et al

Jalopnick  posted an article on the incident last night.  Tragic.

docwyte said:

djsilver, can you comment on what sort of additional safety equipment (if any) was installed in the car?

I don't know what equipment was in the car because it was run by a PCA region under their rules.  If I did know I would have to tell you I can't say because it's the responsibility of the event organizers to disseminate any information about it.  

Thx

BoxheadCougarTim said:

djsilver said:

I was told that while he did have several broken bones and other injuries, he is expected to make a full recovery.

I'm very glad to hear that.

Me too. This one hit kinda close to home.