Am I getting old or smart?

I've reached the point where I'd rather drive something under 2500lb and up to 240hp is reasonable before needing to go down the wormhole of spending double or triple on e build to support it any higher amount of horsepower for fun, whether it be autocross, rallycross, or prepping for hillclimb, rally sprint or things the entail significantly more of an investment in safety equipment, making the platform far less streetable. 

I feel like with newer road cars, that 3600lb + and a 0-60 of 6 seconds flat, or less, is the norm. Handling deficiencies are masked by much better and wider tires than were fitted to the lighter more nimble platforms of 20 or 30 years ago. The 2021 Sienna does a 0-60 in 7.8 seconds and runs the quarter mile in 16.1 seconds, and it's power is listed as a negative by reviewers, as it lags behind most others in it's class, but those numbers are comparable to a 1.6 NA Miata. 

I am old and lazy and I'm not capable of extracting enough of the capability from newer platforms for them to be fun? Am I not willing to invest in the seat time to crack the code (or do I find it not worth it to, because in 4 years something faster will come out). Or am I complacent and not wanting to learn a new platform, because what I've known for 20 years is easy to me and I don't second guess what I'm doing with regards to maintenance, repairs or modifications to make. 

What I'm getting at is that for driving something on the street the amenities of newer stuff and the performance to be able to keep up with traffic is absolutely wonderful and a better experience in day to day life. But when it comes to motorsports, I've reached the point where I actually enjoy something older, lighter, slower and more engaging. I just hope it doesn't reach a point where I'm the only old guy out there in something slow, racing against nobody else. 

Some years back I had an 86 BMW 325e and I was thinking about doing a track day for the hell of it. I decided not to as it would have been nothing but a rolling chicane to all modern powerful hardware that was showing up. 

My rabbit hole ended up with a formula car, because what fun can you really have on the street? Legally at least?  Especially in the DMV area. 

I like how the title implies that old & smart are mutually exclusive :P

A first gen RX7 would be a fun track car. The problem is finding one that isn't rusted, modded by a bunch of different owners, V8 swapped, or a low mileage garage queen that sells for above $10k on BaT. 

sergio said:

A first gen RX7 would be a fun track car. The problem is finding one that isn't rusted, modded by a bunch of different owners, V8 swapped, or a low mileage garage queen that sells for above $10k on BaT. 

 

Having tracked a 1st gen RX-7 back when they were still just cheap used cars... It was fun but definitely suffered from rolling-chicane syndrome, even in 2000-2001, and I was getting RSI on my left elbow from all the point-bys.

Modding them for more power will highlight the suspension's deficiencies (they like to snap oversteer, and most things that make cars handle better makes the snap oversteer worse) and with as expensive as clean examples are, and as unsupported by the aftermarket as they are in 2021, it makes more sense to spend $8k on a Miata or FR-S/BR-Z.

The low mileage garage queens are closer to $20k nowadays, although I've heard of one or two hitting $25k.

ProDarwin said:

I like how the title implies that old & smart are mutually exclusive :P

Ok boomer. 
 

I'm racing a 33 yr old F500 single seater & a 49 year old Datsun.  The Formula 500 is neither fast nor slow but as single seat cars go it's easier to live with than the wazoo fast sports racer I once had. So I total get where you are coming from.

I've been lucky enough to drive some 750hp track cars and at the end of the day I have to admit that I enjoy low to mid level cars more (think Miata to Cayman).

As for the slower cars and the perceived need for something faster or having more horsepower; I run the 80 rear wheel horsepower Datsun at PCA track days. I run it in the intermediate group (as do some other instructors with gutless cars) and due to the fact that  passing is only on the straights the whole point by issue is not an issue.  

ProDarwin said:

I like how the title implies that old & smart are mutually exclusive :P

I had the Miata out tonight and totally know what you mean. 

I started doing track days in a 528e, which is like a 325e, but slower and less nimble. It was fun, would do again. I also like going out in the intermediate group, it makes me feel like I'm actually a decent driver. 240hp and 2500# makes a pretty sweet machine.

captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:

I just hope it doesn't reach a point where I'm the only old guy out there in something slow, racing against nobody else. 

If that ever happens, I'll make sure I'm on the track with you, driving a mid-60's Volvo.  You'll be able to spot us- we'll be the ones with the biggest grins on our faces. 

Part of this may be a case of modern horsepower inflation: 240 hp in a 2500 lb package sounds like plenty of mayhem potential. Imagine those numbers in the '80s - that would be like finding 700 lbs to remove from a C4 Corvette, some sort of psychotic engine swap project with a V8 powered Pinto or Fiero, or a VW GTI or Dodge Omni made into a short-lived boost grenade. In the early 2000s, this would have been an S2000 with 300 lbs taken out. Or GRM's rotary powered Spitfire.

What's changed is that the effort to build such a combination is a little less deranged and the result can be made a bit more practical.

I can buy your tires but you can't buy my lightness.

ProDarwin said:

I like how the title implies that old & smart are mutually exclusive :P

Some of us may repeatedly prove that assumption, although I don't feel that old...

In reply to MadScientistMatt :

It's more than just that though. Modern cars mute most of the sensory inputs. Thus for the sensation of speed has been reduced for the same physical performance, and requires ever increasing levels of physical performance to maintain the same sensation of speed. The sensation of speed is where the fun comes from. This is why faster does not directly equate to more fun. Sometimes "better" isn't.

In reply to Driven5 :

Very true.  The goal of a street car is diametrically opposed to that of a track car.  I just drove my 2015 Mazda 3 on a 1500 mile round trip, during which I was averaging over 70mph most of the time, and felt relaxed and comfortable the whole time.  That same trip in a 1965 Volvo would have been done at a slower speed, and on-edge the whole time dealing with the sensory overload.  There's a reason why a trip over 100 miles or so used to be a multiple-day affair for most of automotive history, and why a fellow needed a smoke and a couple of martinis to wind down after a day on the road. 

But, drive the two cars at the limit, and the Volvo is simply more fun, engaging, and easier to explore its limits, even though it's quantifiably slower. 

Hey, 240 hp and 2500 lbs describes my RX7 track day car to the letter. I can confirm even with those numbers I'm guilty of being the "rolling chicane" others have mentioned. Granted a lot of that is driver skill but there's still no keeping up with factory cars putting down over 500 hp with assists like stability/traction control. It's not so bad on tighter tracks like Summit Point as they require the big boys to work in the corners but on higher speed courses like VIR no amount of prowess in the corners is going to make up for a 250 hp debit.

Driven5 said:

In reply to MadScientistMatt :

It's more than just that though. Modern cars mute most of the sensory inputs. Thus for the sensation of speed has been reduced for the same physical performance, and requires ever increasing levels of physical performance to maintain the same sensation of speed. The sensation of speed is where the fun comes from. This is why faster does not directly equate to more fun. Sometimes "better" isn't.

Also very true. It's hard to match the fun factor of a Triumph Spitfire - at least while it's running - even if it was probably one of the slowest cars I've ever driven.

The E36 M3 with 240hp and ~3100lbs used to be a track weapon.  It's still a quick track car in the right hands.  That's less power than a Camry has now and by a large margin.  I admit I'm a power hound, I have no desire to drive a miata around, on the street or the track.

The newer cars do have less feel, it's a combination of weight, computer systems, electric power steering, etc.  There's a reason why my "fun" cars are from the '90-mid '00's.  They have hydraulic steering, enough computers to run correctly but not really interfere with the fun...

MadScientistMatt said:

Driven5 said:

In reply to MadScientistMatt :

It's more than just that though. Modern cars mute most of the sensory inputs. Thus for the sensation of speed has been reduced for the same physical performance, and requires ever increasing levels of physical performance to maintain the same sensation of speed. The sensation of speed is where the fun comes from. This is why faster does not directly equate to more fun. Sometimes "better" isn't.

Also very true. It's hard to match the fun factor of a Triumph Spitfire - at least while it's running - even if it was probably one of the slowest cars I've ever driven.

The original Mini is like that, too.