Another driver feedback thread

Hey all I recently did a TNIA at NJMP Lightning with the celica. It was a great fun but I definitely miss having an instructor especially at my level. It feels like I'm hopeless lost at points (like turn 5) and leaving a ton of time on table (braking?).  I'm hoping you keen folk can help me focus on things I can improve on.

Not that the car matters at the stage but  for reference I'm running bfg comp2s 205/50/16 (340TW), stoptech sport pads, kyb agx, bigger rear sway bar.
 60 mph on the gauge cluster is at ~9 o'clock
100 mph on the gauge cluster is between 11-12 o'clock

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTdNcf-9i7s

Course map for reference

It seems I should be more aggressive on braking, which would have gave me more confidence to upshift at certain places in the course too, but let me have it. Lots of mistakes means lots of oppurtunity for improvment. Apologies for the helmet cam but I didn't have a great place to hardmount the camera to the car.

Two things jump out at me and they're both exactly what I'd expect you to need to work on at your stage.

1 Use the whole track.  It looks like your running a reasonable line but by not using the whole width of the track you're leaving a ton of speed on the table.  Turn in from the very outside edge of the track.  If you can't get the car to turn in all the way down to the apex then you need to be going slower mid corner.  Open up the wheel and let the car run out to the edge of the track.  If the curbs are rough and you don't want to put your street car on them or there are rules that prohibit that in your run group that's fine but you should be right up next to them.  It feels very unnatural and maybe even reckless when you first start using the whole width but that's the fast way.  They've got cones placed around the track at the points where you should be closest to the edge.  They won't always be there but take advantage of them when they are.

2 Make your downshift later.  You might also want to work on heal-toe downshifts to rev match but for now just downshift later.  The early shift points you're using now are unsettling the chassis when you let the clutch out and placing unnecessary loads on the engine, clutch and gearbox.  You should be using the brakes for braking not the engine.  Think race car not truck.

You can be more aggressive in the braking zones but I suggest working on the other things first.  When I go to a new track or to a lesser extent drive a new to me car optimizing the braking zones is the last thing I work on.  If I'm still trying to figure out exactly where I want to be in the corner (or even which way the next corner goes) and how fast I want to be mid corner the last thing I want is to be threshold braking down to the turn-in point. 

Work on the line and technique and the speed will come.  I worked with a student last summer who had a ton of autocross experience but no track experience and he'd start to overdrive the car and get off line whenever he tried to increase his speed.  I had him do a whole session where he just concentrated on driving the line and his last two laps of the session were significantly faster then he'd gone all day including what he'd thought was a banzai all out lap.

Remember to keep having fun.  This stuff is too expensive and time consuming to do if you're not enjoying it.

Looks like you might be relying too much on the turn in markers. Definitely seems like you could be braking later but that could be a function of the mediocre tires and brakes as well. You specifically call out T5 but I would have said that was one of your better corners. I have no idea what speed should be, but it doesn't seem terribly slow and the line looks pretty good, especially for a blind-ish apex.

I'm no expert but in my eyes you're not using the full width of the track. It doesn't look like you're overdriving the car though either. Try driving the correct line at a slower pace and work on hitting your marks. Once you know the line start increasing your speeds. Concentrate on improving 1-2 corners per session.

I look for walkthrough videos for a track I'm trying to learn. Spec Miatas generally need the smoothest lines to carry speed.

https://youtu.be/Dn7OTO2pqZs

I also like to look for videos of guys running much faster cars than I have and watch their lines:

https://youtu.be/egFMnsICYc4

CAinCA said:

I also like to look for videos of guys running much faster cars than I have and watch their lines:

https://youtu.be/egFMnsICYc4

Be careful with that, there's plenty of incompetent drivers with fast cars. Honestly "good driver in comparable car" is way more useful anyway, finding that can be a challenge though.

Yes on the down shift later

You tend to turn in to early and you're missing most of the apexes by a couple of feet.

I suspect the missed apexes is more of a case of you being a bit conservative (a good thing when you start out) as is the fact that you don't track out to the exit kerbing. If need be slow down a touch so you can hit your marks.

On the plus side you're inputs are smooth and you have the general line down.

If I were your instructor  I would have you working on turning in a bit later, getting the all the ways against the apex kerb and then tracking all the way out to the exit kerb. 

You don't need to try and go faster but you need to start using all of the track. Right now your that's where your biggest gain will be.

dps214 said:

CAinCA said:

I also like to look for videos of guys running much faster cars than I have and watch their lines:

https://youtu.be/egFMnsICYc4

Be careful with that, there's plenty of incompetent drivers with fast cars. Honestly "good driver in comparable car" is way more useful anyway, finding that can be a challenge though.

True. 

Agree with what others have said about using the whole track.  It's forgivable on the track-out, but you're missing most of the apexes and that costs you serious time.  For most drivers it's a consequence of not having your eyes far enough down the track.  Before turn in you should be looking at apex.  Before apex you should be looking at track out.

Also a small thing- don't hook your thumbs through the steering wheel.  If the airbag goes off it can be a big problem.  Imagine that you're holding a screwdriver- that's the grip to use on the wheel.

I think a lot of this is just you being really tentative as your skills improve, which is fine. But there's a few things to work on that will make the speed and the flow more attainable and easier to manage as it increases.

1. A few people have pointed out your smoothness, which is great. So keep nurturing those delicate wheel inputs because they'll be important to balance the car at the limit when things speed up. But your turn-in points are almost a little too gradual, which is making them too early, so you end up drifting to the center of the track before making a true direction change. Turn-in should be smooth, but decisive. Once it's time to make a direction change, try and get as much of your wheel input out of the way as early as possible so you can start unwinding as soon as you can. Cheating in toward the center of the track means that your eyes are staying ahead of you, which is good, but your hands are following them at that point as well when they should be waiting to make a single and decisive turn-in.

2. Coasting and gradual brake applications. I bet if we had a speed trace on this lap we'd see a lot of flat or gently round peaks. As you approach a corner, you need to either be on the throttle or on the brake. If you;re not comfortable threshold braking at the last second just yet, you can move your braking points back, but focus on making that transition as quick as possible, and getting to your max decel rate as quick as possible. Like I said, if you're not ready for max braking just yet, brake earlier and lighter, but get to your chosen max decel rate on initial application, not after roling into the brakes. Obviously some corners demand different techniques, but in general you want to be rolling off the brake on crner entry, not rolling into it on initial decel.

Aside from that, just the stuff folks have mentioned. Keeping your eyes up will always lessen the panic inside the car and slow down the rate of things coming at you you have to deal with. Looks like you;re actually doing apretty good job with that already. 

Thanks everyone for all your input and feedback. Every bit is greatly appreciated and well received.

I'll definitely be more mindful to use the whole track and get on the curbing. Hopefully once I be more mindful of the apexes and hit them tracking out will flow and feel more intuitive. I definitely have an issue with commitment and using more steering input. 

So more turn in later and more decisively/commit, apex,  unwind/track out/feed throttle. Will drive the line slowly and really try to get it down before getting flustered and sloppy by adding more speed.

As for braking should I be braking hard--coming off smoothly then rev match downshift if i'm not heel toeing? I'm not skilled enough to keep even pedal pressure under hard braking and heel-toeing 

So I'd  brake hard and little earlier than someone heel-toeing, car in neutral weight, down shift then turn in?

Thanks again!

I typically make my downshifts just before the turn in point, it sometimes (corner dependent) bleeds into the transition to trail braking (read as I'm turning in)

You need to learn heel toe downshifts as they are an integral part of driving.  Might as well start now.

You can practice outside of the track. Find a big empty lot; drive along in third gear, start slowing and make your heel toe downshift (say from 3rd to 2nd), as soon as the shift is done make a 180 degree turn, accelerate and then up shift back to 3rd, brake make your down shift, then do a 180.................repeat this for several cycles. You can do all of this while driving mellow. About 20 minutes of practice will get you most of the way there. After that you can do this while daily driving, by the time you go to your next track day you'll have it mastered.

As an instructor threshold braking is the last thing on my list for people to learn; I've had more than one student who've told me they went to X professional school and were taught to go from max throttle to max brake instantly. While this is true for racing, the problem is people end up being rough with their brake pedal release. Smooth brake pedal release is one of the most important aspect of learning to maintain corner entry speed. If you master one thing master this.

My point is don't be so focused on threshold braking that it impedes your progress on things like heel & toe down shifts, pedal release / trail braking and nailing your turn in points. 

To add to Tom12000's comments.  Think about why you're downshifting.  It's not for slowing the car.  That's what the brakes are for.  It's so that you're in the right gear when you get back on the gas.  So, you want to downshift at some point where you won't unsettle the chassis when you let the clutch out and your work load is low enough that you can do it without messing something else up.  That's probably somewhere around your turn in.

As an exercise you might skip the downshift completely for a couple of laps while you work on your line.  Just leave the car in the higher gear.

Heal-toe feels awkward when you first start doing it but if you do it long enough it'll become automatic.  I do it in anything I drive that has pedal placement that allows it without even thinking about it.  Tom's exercise exercise is good and once you get the basics you can just do it whenever you're driving the car.

When I’m instructing, I’ll have my student put their tires in the curbing on the out lap and the cool down lap from the first session on.  This gets them a rough feel of what the steering feels like when on the curbs.  It also makes them use the whole track at slower speeds as well.  I see way too many cars in the novice group drive in the middle of the track on the cool off lap.  That’s a wasted lap on track at a time when every lap helps.

JG Pasterjak said:

2. Coasting and gradual brake applications. <snip....> Like I said, if you're not ready for max braking just yet, brake earlier and lighter, but get to your chosen max decel rate on initial application, not after roling into the brakes. <snip...>

Andrew Rains helped me a bit with my braking and maybe his advice will help you a bit here. Also grain of salt, because I'm probably making a hash of his coaching.

Essentially if you KNOW a corner is a threshold braking corner but are trying to figure out where to start threshold braking - just do it early at first (pick a safe braking marker). You should have majorly over-slowed for the corner, but don't go light and easy on the pedal - do it to the best of your ability and try to get it all done in a straight line initially. Gradually move it, because you now know that you can easily overslow for the corner (and you're getting a feel for your car threshold braking in a safe way)  - as you move it up you'll slowly make it to a good braking point and start to get a feel for it all. Data will help here as JG hinted at. 

On warmup and cool down laps follow through your lines religiously and ACTUALLY touch the curbs/apexes/etc. A lot of times at speed you think you're actually getting them, but in fact you're miles off - when you touch them while warming up/cooling down/parade laps you start to get visuals to go with it all. Use parade laps if they're available to work on your visuals and lines. Remember if you're "driving" to the line (i.e. I can input more steering to make the apex) - you can be certain you're not at pace and if you're missing the line - you're overdriving the car. Just walk up to the pace slowly. 

lnlds said:

As for braking should I be braking hard--coming off smoothly then rev match downshift if i'm not heel toeing? I'm not skilled enough to keep even pedal pressure under hard braking and heel-toeing 

Heel toe isn't an all or nothing thing, especially if you're not pushing the brakes to the absolute limit. A little bit of pedal fluctuation isn't the end of the world, but it will be good practice and get yourself acclimated to doing it the "right" way. I wouldn't call myself an expert at it but I'm struggling to even think of what the braking/turn in process would feel like without doing it. It's not 100% the same, but it's absolutely a thing you can learn/practice just in normal driving.

accordionfolder said:

JG Pasterjak said:

2. Coasting and gradual brake applications. <snip....> Like I said, if you're not ready for max braking just yet, brake earlier and lighter, but get to your chosen max decel rate on initial application, not after roling into the brakes. <snip...>

Andrew Rains helped me a bit with my braking and maybe his advice will help you a bit here. Also grain of salt, because I'm probably making a hash of his coaching.

Essentially if you KNOW a corner is a threshold braking corner but are trying to figure out where to start threshold braking - just do it early at first (pick a safe braking marker). You should have majorly over-slowed for the corner, but don't go light and easy on the pedal - do it to the best of your ability and try to get it all done in a straight line initially. Gradually move it, because you now know that you can easily overslow for the corner (and you're getting a feel for your car threshold braking in a safe way)  - as you move it up you'll slowly make it to a good braking point and start to get a feel for it all. Data will help here as JG hinted at. 

Yes exactly this; you can start conservative then walk it in. It's one of the easier things to work on. Once you start missing apexes by about a foot you know you've gone to far and then it's matter of dialing it back.

I sometimes preload the throttle to settle the rear end of the car under threshold braking.  I don't teach people this as I think it would do most drivers more harm then good. 

Noted. Will work on heel-toe and scouting for a lot to do the drill you mentioned. Sounds like a great way to get a lot of practice in quickly.

Excuses: The ergonomics aren't as friendly in this car for me so I really need to be pretty hard on the brakes to get the brake low enough for me to roll my the outside edge of my foot onto the gas. My wife's car with a floor mounted gas pedal is tremendously easier. I'm going to continue as is, but might try adjusting the brake pedal 0.5-1cm lower  as long as it's within the factory specs.

But all this has be excited to get back to the same track hopefully in a few months. I'll continue practicing heel-toe and remember to fully utilize paced laps & cooldown laps.  And try to actually use the brake this next time.

It might be easier to raise the gas pedal.  You can clamp an aftermarket pedal cover to it.

In reply to lnlds :

I wouldn't worry too much, looks like you're having a blast and that's about the only yardstick worth using!

accordionfolder said:

In reply to lnlds :

I wouldn't worry too much, looks like you're having a blast and that's about the only yardstick worth using!

Yes.......make sure you're having fun.

In reply to Tom1200 :

I definitely am having loads of fun, and had a bit more fun the second time around this past week,  maybe too much. Practicing heel-toe on the street helped my confidence tremendously using the brake.  I still  see myself making a lot of the same mistakes, not using the whole width of the track and turning in early.

There was an incident I wanted some feedback and to discuss  along with the regular feedback

Session 2 back half

As for the close call (2:32)...what was done right and what was done wrong? Based on the previous lap I expected the white BMW to be a comfortably faster than me so I didn't think anything as he disappeared over the crest and I was looking down the straight. I panic braked while the car was loaded up when he surprised me not knowing if he was going to come in but got back on the throttle as soon as I realized what was happening.

It seems like if I was taking that same line that he was (and other people most of the day in my group) I would have ended up wheel to wheel with him.

Done right: smooth-ish, no contact, everyone drove home!

Could be better: It took me a while to learn not to follow other peoples' crappy lines, but to drive my own crappy line. Looks like you were following his line to some extent but you picked up relatively early that the BMW was in trouble. More experience will raise those flags a lot faster.

He was so wide and braking so far into the turn that you can see he's not going to pull it off, and you'll learn to change your line earlier to avoid his likely out-of-control return to the track surface (as much as that's possible).

Speaking as Mr WayTooSlowhands himself, while smooth is fast there's a time for fast hands. In events like the close call and the wiggle around 4:27 it looks like you're processing while the car moves unusually. With more seat time, your hands will be much faster countersteering when the car gets unsettled. 

You did a good job of dealing with the situation with the BMW going off.

As for improvement; said BMW was starting to get a bit ragged and so the off wasn't a big surprise; for you recognizing that the car in front is getting a bit ragged is a matter of experience. This is purely seat time; as you drive more you'll have more capacity to drive and process what the cars around you are doing

We all make little mistakes hear and there; just keep working at it. the fact that you know you are making mistakes is huge......many drivers keep pounding around obliviously. Again just keep hitting you marks and working at it.