Anyone have experience with both the AP2 S2000 and the Lotus Elise? Wisdom requested.

Anyone on here have any experience driving/owning both an AP2 S2000 and a Lotus Elise?

I've been saving up to buy a clean, low mileage, DBW (2006-2009) AP2 S2000 for a while now; ever since I sold my previous Mazdaspeed Miata. I usually see nice, clean, stock, low mileage examples selling in the mid to low 20's; so that's where I've been budgeting.

Here lately, I've seen a few local Lotus Elise's popping up in the mid-high 20's that have piqued my interest. A bit beyond what I originally set my budget as, but nothing I can't swing if I really enjoyed it to a much greater extent.

I've test driven a very long list of sports car, but unfortunately, I've never had the privilege of piloting an Elise. I've ridden in a supercharged Exige a few years back and while I remember it being an exciting experience, I also found it extremely cramped/uncomfortable, but I don't think that's a fair comparison, as the Exige had a large metal plate/brace in the passenger side foot-well that seemed to take up several inches of leg-room (vs the driver side), which was the primary problem. Based on photos, the driver side appears to have considerably more leg-room:

For reference, I'm about 6'2” 210 lbs, 33” waist, 34” inseam. I “fit” per se in older NA/NB Miata's (I've owned 2 of them), but never considered them comfortable. I fit in an S2000 much easier than a Miata, although it is “cosy” to say the least. I'm curious about fitting in an Elise for more prolonged periods of time- 60+ minutes.

I find quite a few things very attractive about the Elise- ~1900 lbs curb weight, mid-engine setup, Toyota powertrain/reliability, exterior aesthetics, manual steering rack, solid power/weight ratio, removable top, supercar handling, ect.

I also know that there are some inherent disadvantages of the Elise- cramped interior, non-existent storage space, poor daily driver qualities and from what I understand, if you damage them in the least, the front/rear clams are insanely expensive to repair/replace. They're also considerably more expensive to insure vs the S2000- roughly an extra $360/year vs the S2000; not going to break the bank, but certainly something to note.

For reference, this would be a weekend/playtoy car only. My daily driver is a 2016 VW Golf R that comfortably hauls the family & dog around without issue.

This car would mostly be for weekend canyon drives, autoX events, the occasional HPDE event, date nights with the little lady and I might take it to work maybe 1-2 times a week when it's nice outside. Basically a fair-weather only machine that is only driven with the top down and the sun shining.

I've driven dozens of other vehicles in my search for the “right” car; a few of which included the C5 Z06, Z4M Coupe (couldn't find a roadster to drive), Nismo 370Z, NC & ND Miata, RX-8 R3, MR2 Spyder, AP1 & AP2 S2000, Solstice GXP, BRZ/FR-S, 986 Boxster S & 987 Boxster S. Don't be fooled by the hardtops I drove, as I gave them a chance based on their merits, but ultimately, I prefer a convertible for a weekend playtoy. There's something about an open-top sports car that is hard to replicate.

Among my many test drives down my favorite local canyon road, the most fun drives I had by far were in the AP2 S2000 and the 987 Boxster S. Loved the 987 S, but marked it off my list for a myriad of reasons- namely ownership costs and potential repair costs. After researching the 987 I found that people that popped motors at track days (or even on the street) ended up costing them $15k-$22k for a replacement. Which made my realize that I can't comfortably afford to own one if something goes wrong, haha! Meanwhile the drivetrains in cars like the S2000 and Elise are considered to be reliable and much cheaper to replace if something goes wrong. As someone that's popped a couple motors on track in the past, I understand that sometimes, things go wrong!

Either way, this isn't a discussion about the other cars I've driven. I've narrowed it down to the AP2 S2000 and the last curiosity car on my list (that's somewhere close to my budget) is the Lotus Elise.

Does anyone have any experience with both the Elise and the AP2 S2000?

How do they compare on the road, as well as at an autoX or track event?

Long term ownership experiences with either?

For the weekend toy I'm shopping for, is the Elise worth the extra cash over the S2000 (subjectively)?

Anything else I need to know about the Elise?

Thanks in advance!

-Brandon

I've been doing the research on the Elise lately specifically as a track car to instuct with.

1) You need the 240hp superchargerd version
2) It needs oil baffling and a swirl pot for track duty
3) It needs the same amount of aftermarket suspension as any other car for serious track work and wider wheels 4) Any bump at all to the clamshell or body work is the whole cost of an AP2 unless you own a specialty body shop.
5) It is so damn good when properly set up that I don't care about any of that

Bottom line... you need the more expensive supercharger model, and a budget above the cost of the car to make it really track worthy. If you are only going to the track 1 or 2 times a year on street tires and just want a fun toy then you can get away without that stuff. Otherwise - it's really a $35-40k car. It is one helluva fun car though. I can't say if it's worth the money - I haven't spent it yet. Every time I think I want to I punch myself in the throat and go ride my motorcycle.

High 20K Elise would be a salvage car when you look into it. htye are all salvage at that price unless they have 80K miles.

At your height/weight even though I lust over the lotus I would do the AP2. I am 200ish and 6'0' and I do not fit in a lotus with a comfortably. With a helmet on forget about it.

FYI the base lotus like stated above needs more power, like a lot more power.

I really like the Honda S2000.

Huckleberry wrote: I've been doing the research on the Elise lately specifically as a track car to instuct with. 1) You need the 240hp superchargerd version 2) It needs oil baffling and a swirl pot for track duty 3) It needs the same amount of aftermarket suspension as any other car for serious track work and wider wheels 4) Any bump at all to the clamshell or body work is the whole cost of an AP2 unless you own a specialty body shop. 5) It is so damn good when properly set up that I don't care about any of that Bottom line... you need the more expensive supercharger model, and a budget above the cost of the car to make it really track worthy. If you are only going to the track 1 or 2 times a year on street tires and just want a fun toy then you can get away without that stuff. Otherwise - it's really a $35-40k car. It is one helluva fun car though. I can't say if it's worth the money - I haven't spent it yet. Every time I think I want to I punch myself in the throat and go ride my motorcycle.

I would love the supercharged version, but at that point, it's a bit too rich for my blood. I can swing an extra couple grand over my projected S2000 budget, but when we start talking an extra $10k+, that's out of my league.

Although I haven't driven the base Elise, on paper it's supposedly a bit quicker than an S2000 and about on par with the older 986 Boxster S & early 3.2L 987 S. According to all the rags, they're supposed to run low 13's in the 1/4 mile, trapping around 103-104mph. Nothing to brag about, but certainly in the same league as the other cars I was impressed with (AP2 S2000 & 987 Boxster S).

Honestly, if full coverage insurance wasn't an option, I think the cost of repairs would scare me away. In the event of a fender bender, I can afford a $500 deductible without issue. Although I haven't been in an accident or damaged a car in almost 15 years and am hoping to keep that streak alive!

For reference, it would mostly be a street machine that would spend a decent amount of time running autoX. The plan was to run either car in their stock autoX class (Super Street- Elise or B Street- S2000) for a while before doing much work to it. And maybe take it to a handful of HPDE track days a year (if that). Nothing too competitive, and sticking with street tires. But mostly it would just be a weekend canyon carver, date night with the wife, occasional commuter and autoX toy; with just a few HPDE days sprinkled in for good measure. No plans for a full blown track machine for this one.

Think about a accident autocrossing or HPDE won't be covered by your normal insurance. But to own a Lotus ... it's what boyhood dreams are made of.

wearymicrobe wrote: High 20K Elise would be a salvage car when you look into it. htye are all salvage at that price unless they have 80K miles. At your height/weight even though I lust over the lotus I would do the AP2. I am 200ish and 6'0' and I do not fit in a lotus with a comfortably. With a helmet on forget about it. FYI the base lotus like stated above needs more power, like a lot more power.

I've found a couple locally that were in the very high 20's that had clean titles and reasonable miles on my (sub 60k), but they didn't seem to spend too much time on the market. I hear ya though, most of the ones I've seen nationally in that price range are salvage title cars.

That was my biggest concern with the Elise- that I wouldn't fit comfortably. Had that problem recently with the new ND Miata. Drove it back to back with an AP2 S2000 and couldn't get comfortable in the ND, even after several minutes of trying to adjust the seat, so I had to cross it off the list. I was shocked that I was more comfortable in the old NA/NB Miata than I was in the new ND, despite it supposedly having a bigger interior on paper.

Although like I mentioned above, on paper the Elise has a better power/weight ratio than the S2000 and is supposed to be a bit quicker than the Honda. Both of them also have narrow powerbands (VTEC & VVTL-i both kick in around 6000rpm and redline around 8000rpm). Is there something I'm missing?

Stampie wrote: Think about a accident autocrossing or HPDE won't be covered by your normal insurance. But to own a Lotus ... it's what boyhood dreams are made of.

Valid point, sir. I don't foresee much of an issue at an autoX event, but that's certainly a concern for HPDE. With a car like the Elise, looking into track day insurance probably isn't a bad idea, but that is another significant cost to consider...

roninsoldier83 wrote: Honestly, if full coverage insurance wasn't an option, I think the cost of repairs would scare me away. In the event of a fender bender, I can afford a $500 deductible without issue.

But that is the reason there are so many available with salvage titles. A fender bender that damages the front or rear clam most likely means the car is totaled. And buying one that already has a salvage title means the insurance company may not give you full coverage.

How important are the exotic looks of the lotus?

My dad has an ap2 that I've tracked and autox extensively.

I've got a weekend with an Elise with an autocross event.

There is no way my wife would do the gymnastics required to get in and out of an Elise for a date night. Your wife wouldn't be able to where a skit or dress, lest she flash the whole world. But hey some people are into that so it may be a bonus.

icaneat50eggs wrote: There is no way my wife would do the gymnastics required to get in and out of an Elise for a date night. Your wife wouldn't be able to where a skit or dress, lest she flash the whole world. But hey some people are into that so it may be a bonus.

This^^

You can crack a clam autocrossing. Not a guarantee, but it has happened. Cold weather, hard cones.

Hal wrote:

roninsoldier83 wrote: Honestly, if full coverage insurance wasn't an option, I think the cost of repairs would scare me away. In the event of a fender bender, I can afford a $500 deductible without issue.

But that is the reason there are so many available with salvage titles. A fender bender that damages the front or rear clam most likely means the car is totaled. And buying one that already has a salvage title means the insurance company may not give you full coverage.

No plans to buy a salvage or rebuilt title car. Occasionally a clean title car has popped up locally within my price range. Otherwise, valid point.

icaneat50eggs wrote: How important are the exotic looks of the lotus? My dad has an ap2 that I've tracked and autox extensively. I've got a weekend with an Elise with an autocross event. There is no way my wife would do the gymnastics required to get in and out of an Elise for a date night. Your wife wouldn't be able to where a skit or dress, lest she flash the whole world. But hey some people are into that so it may be a bonus.

Looks aren't terribly important, just another on the list of pros for the Elise.

How did the Elise you autoX'd compare to the S2000? I'm assuming it was a bit quicker, but how did it compare to the fun factor of the S2000?

The little lady doesn't wear a ton of dresses and isn't exactly a stranger to trading fashion for [automotive] fun! She runs 12+ miles every morning, sky-dives, trail runs, hikes 14'ers, daily drives a WRX and her weekend playtoy is a Honda CBR600 F4i that I've watched her scrape pegs on multiple times. Something tells me that if I decided to get an Elise, she would find a way to slip into it! I suppose removing the top would also help...

Thus far, this is what I'm taking from this conversation:

1. The Elise is more expensive to buy/run that it would appear on the surface.

2. I shouldn't rule out uninsured body damage that can become a staggering cost.

3. Most of the "good" Elise's are likely out of my price range.

4. The Elise appears to be more "under-powered" than it appears on paper.

5. It's a damn good car, but likely needs deep pockets to extract the most from it.

6. There's a good chance that I would not fit inside of it comfortably given my size (6'2" 210 lbs, 33" waist, 34" inseam).

Basically, I should probably just stick with the safe bet and pickup a nice, low-mileage AP2 S2000.

Am I missing anything?

Keep in mind my experience is mostly with an S1 Elise (which the US didn't get, but they're not that dissimilar). Clam damage can get expensive, but the bigger issue is chassis damage if the car has been hit sufficiently hard. The chassis can't really be repaired according to Lotus but people try any and that might not be the straightest car you've ever driven.

I disagree with it being "under powered" or the need for a lot of additional mods to make them go faster. They're pretty light weight and even stock they're capable on the track, so a suspension refresh, good tires and a good alignment is likely to be all it'd need. Yes, there'll always be faster cars out there - if you want to go fast in a straight line, neither of them is for you.

That said, fit is likely an issue - I'm 5'11" and ended up regularly bumping my head into the hardtop if I was wearing a helmet. Plus, there really isn't much of a dignified way to fold yourself into the car through what feels like a letterbox-sized opening or to fall out of it (which is pretty much the accepted technique to exit it if you're not a gymnast).

I've never driven an S2000. I'm 6 foot even, and I do fit in an Elise (at least in an S1, I've actually never driven a US-spec one). You will rub shoulders with your passenger, though.

One thing to be aware of is that putting the top on the Elise bears a lot more resemblance to putting up a tent than anything you'd really consider a convertible. It's a multi-minute affair that involves getting out of the car and walking around to both sides of it.

I'm about your height, but slightly wider. I've never driven an Elise, but I've had the opportunity to get in one. They're fine inside, but getting in, with the low roof, high and wide sills, and small opening, was a challenge. It doesn't help that I've never been that flexible.

Not me, but this approximately how I approached it:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/EdAIF7C3Rfo

Looks like an experienced owner, and probably a better strategy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8aJkf-VXio

As for autox

Is the lotus quicker? Undoubtedly

Is it more fun? Not by much. Both are excellent and a blast to weave around comes. The more fun part is you get more attention and admiring stared between runs.

The both are right in a sweet spot for me on power to weight. More than a Miata, but not enough to get me in trouble constantly. ( I do have a very stupid right foot that treats the gas pedal like an on/off switch )

In reply to Mike:

Watching those two videos sorta makes me glad I didn't sell my Mazdaspeed Miata and buy an Elise a few years back when I was really thinking about it.

I'm always surprised about the elise hate on here. I get that they're not particularly grassroots in terms of bang for the buck but the elise is one of the purest sportscars ever made. They are dynamic bliss. To me, there's no comparison between the two cars in terms of specialness either. S2ks are great, but I'd have an elise over one in a heartbeat. As for all the "mods" needed to track an elise, it really depends what you're trying to do with it. Are you trying to win national championships or are you trying to enjoy driving an amazing car at limit in a safe environment? Can there be improvements? Absolutely. Is the elise a car that needs tons of mods to be incredible on track, imho, not at all. Oiling issues are Way exaggerated on zz series engines, i've been tracking one on slicks or trackday rubber for 100k and had zero issues. If the level is kept at full, zero problem. Is a moroso or equivalent pan a good upgrade? Sure. Is it a necessity, not at all. Drive them both back to back and you'll be blown away. Park them side by side, the elise is So much more special.

I've owned an AP1 and an Elise. The Elise is still in my garage. 'nuff said.

The Elise runs a 13.4 quarter mile, same as the Focus RS, and everyone is jizzing their pants over that car. The N/A Elise is plenty quick.

I'm 6'1", 150lbs, all legs. I fit just fine. The wife and I drive the Elise on errands 2-3 times a week. Fire away with any questions.

In reply to sesto elemento:

I don't think there is any 'hate' for Elises. I would classify it more as elise 'want', at least for me. My criticism above is nothing more than sour grapes that I don't have an Elise.

The real question is whether or not the Lotus is special enough to justify the compromises for any individual person.
A Biturbo is amazing and special but living with one, good lord. In contrast, a Corvette is easy to live with but is only slightly more special than an Accord.
The S2k is closer to the Corvette, the Lotus to the Maserati, it's just how far you're willing to go. After a couple hundred miles in an Exige the want sort of wore off. I'd like to borrow one every now and again, but I'm personally not shopping for one.

I think what Mazduece, myself and Sesto are all hinting at is the fact that the Elise is an irrational beast. You want one because you want one. There are other cars that offer a similar experience and ask less of you. Go drive one for an hour or two (the driver's seat is adjustable BTW, the passenger's isn't) and you'll know if the compromises are with it for you.

Personally, I catch myself looking over the orange fender and going "E36 M3...I'm driving an Elise." And it puts a gigantic smile on my face, every time.