Coupefan said:Do you smile when you drive it, or are you bored?
The car that makes you smile is the better car
Another GRMer and I met for breakfast today. We had this same conversation. Drive what you enjoy because it is the right car for you!
Coupefan said:Do you smile when you drive it, or are you bored?
The car that makes you smile is the better car
Another GRMer and I met for breakfast today. We had this same conversation. Drive what you enjoy because it is the right car for you!
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:Coupefan said:Do you smile when you drive it, or are you bored?
The car that makes you smile is the better car
Another GRMer and I met for breakfast today. We had this same conversation. Drive what you enjoy because it is the right car for you!
The '81 RX-7 makes me smile every damn time. A lot of it is the haptics. The way the turn signal switch feels, the way the shifter feels, it is clear that Mazda had a good mindset for what the controls should feel like and they stuck to it for every driver interface.
This is also largely why the Miata was a knock out of the park. I recall one review said the shifter felt like a fine bolt action rifle that one had carefully cycled a few thousand times to get the feel just right.
New cars are fine but they don't have the same fluid mechanical feel, it is all just switches and knobs.
ALSO: Manual steering!!
Kierenrr07 said:New cars are also made of cheaper sheet metal, meaning with more HP when you crash, you have far less protection than a car that is built to last. New cars are not meant to last. I had a 2017 Hyundai Sonata, and got into a wreck with it going about 30 mph, hitting someone that decided not to yield and turned left. The car was deemed totaled. The lady that I hit had an older sedan, and her car drove off fine.
This is not true. In fact, it is so stunningly not true that it should probably have a big red disclaimer on the post. New cars are safer in every way than old cars. Your Sonata was totaled because it crumpled AROUND the occupant cabin, keeping you safe. New cars highest priority in a crash is keeping the people whole, at the expense of the machine.
Source: I worked in new vehicle R&D for an OEM and watched the ENDLESS iterations and applications of high strength steel, crumple zones, tearaway mounts, etc. all focused on driver safety.
Back on topic, this comes up every so often, and I really think it depends. I love all cars. My '65 Mustang makes me smile every time I drive it, and would probably be the last car I would sell from my fleet if I was heading towards poverty. It rumbles enough that you feel it through the seat and shifter at a stoplight, the interior smells like old car, it makes an awesome noise, it's easy to see out of, and I love the simplicity of the controls (manual steering, manual brakes, mechanical clutch linkage). It's a beautiful car. That being said, it's also a terrible car. It's slow, it doesn't handle well, it doesn't stop well, it's noisy, the HVAC kind of works when it wants to, it vapor locks on hot days (or the ign. coil heat soaks), it overheats in rush hour traffic in the summer, etc. etc. 60's muscle car performance is the most overblown lie in all of car culture. A 300hp Honda Odyssey would destroy 99% of muscle cars in a straight line, on a curvy track, etc. (and I think that's been proven in several magazines..."Oh look at this 500+hp Hemi Cuda! That runs (gulp) 14s....?"). But that's missing the point. They're fun because they're fun.
But they made fun old cars, and boring old cars...just like they make fun new cars and boring new cars. This is one of the most spectacular automotive achievements on the road today, IMO:
Possibly controversial opinion: I think this is 80-90% of the fun of a 911 GT3, for 20% of the cost. And more usable on the street, easier to maintain, and you only cry a little if it gets door dinged at the grocery store. And if the GR86 doesn't float your boat, the Challenger 6.4L NA with the widebody is also amazing, as is the Civic Type R, as is the GT350, as is the Miata....the list goes on and on. There's a lot to be happy and grateful for, whichever way your tastes run.
As you're seeing, it entirely depends upon one's definition of "enjoyable."
My Rabbit GTI is the slowest and objectively worst car in my fleet. Guess which car almost always gets taken out for hot laps? Rabbit time is happy time.
84FSP said:Rabbit time is happy time.
Now that is funny.
Flynlow (FS) said:Kierenrr07 said:New cars are also made of cheaper sheet metal, meaning with more HP when you crash, you have far less protection than a car that is built to last. New cars are not meant to last. I had a 2017 Hyundai Sonata, and got into a wreck with it going about 30 mph, hitting someone that decided not to yield and turned left. The car was deemed totaled. The lady that I hit had an older sedan, and her car drove off fine.
This is not true. In fact, it is so stunningly not true that it should probably have a big red disclaimer on the post. New cars are safer in every way than old cars. Your Sonata was totaled because it crumpled AROUND the occupant cabin, keeping you safe. New cars highest priority in a crash is keeping the people whole, at the expense of the machine.
Source: I worked in new vehicle R&D for an OEM and watched the ENDLESS iterations and applications of high strength steel, crumple zones, tearaway mounts, etc. all focused on driver safety.
Much as I love vintage I accept there is no way it's as safe is modern.
For me it depends entirely on the cars involved and what I enjoy about each.
frenchyd said:Flynlow (FS) said:Kierenrr07 said:New cars are also made of cheaper sheet metal, meaning with more HP when you crash, you have far less protection than a car that is built to last. New cars are not meant to last. I had a 2017 Hyundai Sonata, and got into a wreck with it going about 30 mph, hitting someone that decided not to yield and turned left. The car was deemed totaled. The lady that I hit had an older sedan, and her car drove off fine.
This is not true. In fact, it is so stunningly not true that it should probably have a big red disclaimer on the post. New cars are safer in every way than old cars. Your Sonata was totaled because it crumpled AROUND the occupant cabin, keeping you safe. New cars highest priority in a crash is keeping the people whole, at the expense of the machine.
Source: I worked in new vehicle R&D for an OEM and watched the ENDLESS iterations and applications of high strength steel, crumple zones, tearaway mounts, etc. all focused on driver safety.
Much as I love vintage I accept there is no way it's as safe is modern.
I can't count the number of times I've told students that their unmodified Porsche is way safer than my fully caged Datsun.
In reply to Flynlow (FS) :
Yeah, I can't agree with your proposition that a GR86 is 80-90% of the fun of a GT3. GT3's are one of the most special driving cars out there, there really isn't anything much like them. That doesn't mean that a GR86 isn't a fun car in it's own right...
For me, I like the cars from the mid 2000's. They have enough computer control that stuff runs correctly, hvac works great, they're civilized but they have hydraulic steering racks, have proper HP, stop and handle well etc. My 93 Corrado VR6 was a cool looking car and worked well as a car but just didn't have the power I want now. Didn't help it took a 20% haircut in HP due to altitude too, plus I don't want to own a car where I have to maintain my own parts supply.
Objective answer is it depends. Subjective answer is hell yea! I personally love the rarity, driving feel, and analog controls of older cars.
frenchyd said:Much as I love vintage I accept there is no way it's as safe is modern.
The key there is 'accept'. If you are willing to accept a higher level of risk, life can be more rewarding. It's why I ride motorcycles and drive older vehicles. For my own tastes, I'm having way more fun than someone surrounded by 14 airbags and a paddle shifter. But, it's a personal decision of how much risk you are willing to accept.
"When the quest for safety gets in the way of the enjoyment of life, it is defeating it's own purpose."--Pat Ertel, Vintage Truck magazine editor
Listen, I am a square. I no longer care about going balls to the wall fast; I like to be coddled around, wafting on a cloud in air-conditioned comfort, arriving at my destination feeling refreshed--not needing to pop some ibuprofen because I just destroyed my back. Do I imbibe in some spirited driving from time to time? Yeah, of course.
That said, I feel as though my W126s have done a better job of providing what I want with fewer compromises than say, my 2015 Volvo XC70. Sure, the Volvo is genuinely quick and well composed, but I always found myself preferring my old 350SDL for longer trips.
ddavidv said:frenchyd said:Much as I love vintage I accept there is no way it's as safe is modern.The key there is 'accept'. If you are willing to accept a higher level of risk, life can be more rewarding. It's why I ride motorcycles and drive older vehicles. For my own tastes, I'm having way more fun than someone surrounded by 14 airbags and a paddle shifter. But, it's a personal decision of how much risk you are willing to accept.
"When the quest for safety gets in the way of the enjoyment of life, it is defeating it's own purpose."--Pat Ertel, Vintage Truck magazine editor
Valid point. Probably why I own a vintage race car and a MGTD lacking any modern safety equipment. But I choose to use that when traffic is light ( or find areas where traffic is light).
However in the rush hour commute filled with millions of drivers of dubious skills, focus, and sobriety. I'll gladly surround myself with weapons to defend me. Airbags, designed crush zones, side impact protection are my weapons of choice. Oh and insurance to make me whole again should something bad happen.
frenchyd said:...But I choose to use that when traffic is light ( or find areas where traffic is light). However in the rush hour commute filled with millions of drivers of dubious skills, focus, and sobriety. I'll gladly surround myself with weapons to defend me...
I was reminded of this yesterday, going to the huge Cars and Coffee event in San Clemente, CA. Since relocating to that location, they shifted the hours, from letting people in at ~6am for a good spot, to 8:30am. Always a nice trip up in anything you'd care to drive, light traffic, an enjoyable trip. With the previous C&C hours, you could leave after a few hours, around 8-9am, drive home in light traffic, and still have the rest of the day. Leaving yesterday around 10:30 sucked. The 30-minute drive up and the fun of the event was negated by the 60-minute "drive" back in near stop-and-go traffic. Was sad that I hadn't driven Midlana on the way up, and glad that I hadn't on the way home. It shouldn't surprise me because Saturday traffic is always like that in the area. The irony isn't lost on me that the very thing I enjoy (cars) is also what has taken the fun out of driving them. Driving home in something with good A/C and comfortable seats lessens the pain, but also means I'm getting soft, losing my love for hard-edged machinery. For this thread then, I sadly have to answer this thread with "not any more."
84FSP said:My Rabbit GTI is the slowest and objectively worst car in my fleet. Guess which car almost always gets taken out for hot laps? Rabbit time is happy time.
While my big HP Mk6 is a blast I would rather have a Mk1 GTI.
In reply to preach (dudeist priest) :
A 6 is a car while an early GTI is a Volkswagen. That is the best way I can figure it out.
Awful "cars" 40 years later but wonderful devices.
In reply to preach (dudeist priest) :
Meh. A few years ago I dropped my car off at the shop and they gave me a Mk1 GTi to drive back home. It was horrible. Granted everything NA takes a 20% hit in power up here but it had no snap to it at all. So it was a slow, uncomfortable, ill handling car that can't carry much stuff.
In reply to docwyte :
You know, I almost never get a loaner car as good as the car I'm having worked on.
I don't expect a much much much older car to perform like a modern car. But it still could be fun.
Wouldn't you like to drive a Ford Model A as a loaner? Or a Jaguar XKE ? Sure they aren't as fast etc as the newer stuff but wow would they ever be fun.
Over the past few years, I have been fortunate enough to drive the following at either Barber, Road Atlanta, Talladega GP, AMP, Roebling, NCM, CMP or various autoX events:
- 1986 944, track prepped, stripped, caged, Leeda coilovers, 968 3.0 engine sway
- 1967 Spitfire with a bridge-ported 13B
- open wheel school cars with Mazda 4-cyl (Skip Barber and Beril Roos)
- 2000 Panoz GTS-WC w/LSX and Jerico
- Spec E36
- '93 Mustang race prepped, stripped, caged, SBF stroker, dog-leg trans
- 2016 Cayman S
- 2003 Miata NB with yellow Konis, Racing Beat front bar and Azennis RT660's
- 2016 Audi A6 Quattro
- 2022 C8 Z51
- 2017 F350 Dually (unoffical Dually track record at TGPR haha)
I spent this weekend at Barber in the Miata, Cayman and C8.
Every one of those cars puts a smile on my face, for different reasons. The older, slower ones are super-fun to drive, especially when getting point-bys from "faster" cars, but the modern stuff is super-cool, too. I see this debate the same way I see stick vs paddles, they are different tools for different purposes achgieving different results.
Just drive the car, any car on any track or autoX that you can get in a seat.
#raceallthethings
Well let's look at this.
Folk will spend YEARS and MANY THOUSANDS of dollars to restore and drive an old car.
They will expect a newer car to be flawless and dispose of it as soon as it begins to have any significant issues.
The thirty-plus year old version of many models is worth more than the "Same" new one too.
It's the work and money spent that makes them more than just a car. Building a safe race car takes me an average of 2500 manhours Not to mention the money spent.
The result is unique to me, very personal.
That's not something I can duplicate making years worth of car payments for some assembly line transportation. That it's twin will soon becoming off the same line. And many others like it.
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