In reply to docwyte :
About the scrapping - the battery packs are highly recyclable, which makes them both cleaner to scrap and to build once we start having to scrap a few.
And you can't compare power generation and emissions of mobile ICE to that of a full scale power plant. About the only thing that they have in common is "burns stuff that was underground".
So is Audi going to still have the service position for the front of the car? You know for nostalgic reasons? 
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Yes it will take a while since there are about 290 million vehicles on the road in the US with a very small percentage of them EV and new vehicle sales of about 17+ million per year, and the average age of vehicles on the road is 12 years with many much older than that.
A few days ago, a story about the beginning of the modern race engine in 1912.
And today a story about perhaps the end of that type of engine.
Big oil will not give up easy.
I'm just glad to see Squirrely Dan make an appearance
infinitenexus said:1. That Audi is gorgeous.
2. I think higher-end brands such as that will definitely have an easier time selling these cars. People that can afford a $140K car often also have houses and can have the garage wired for the proper voltage to charge (if it isn't already). People like me that can afford a 20K car will be going for an off-lease Ford Maverick instead. People in my income bracket also often live in apartments and have no real manner to charge electric cars (we run an extension cord out of our bedroom window to charge our plug in Prius). Until chargers are more prevalent, it'll be more difficult for folks like me to own and charge an EV.
3. I think in the next 5 years we're going to see a lot of new EVs coming out. Perhaps we'll see some more affordable ones? I've read that Elon Musk has commented several times that he'd like to do a cheaper Tesla, set below the model 3.
Target has Tesla Chargers already in their parking lot. I'm seeing more and more charging stations at malls and shopping centers.
Here in Minnesota it's fairly common for light poles in parking lots to have 110 volt outlets for winter plug ins. Both at work places. Motels/ hotels, and shopping places.
Yeh it's a slow charge but usually free.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:I'm just glad to see Squirrely Dan make an appearance
And that's what I appreciates about you.
Adding one electric car to an individual household DOUBLES the annual current draw. Most homes with cars own slightly more than 2. That means TRIPLING our electrical capacity to juice an all-EV fleet - that will not happen anytime soon, and arguably not ever. And if commercial vehicles were to follow suit, the problem worsens. Now, add into the equation the fact that modern IC cars are incredibly durable, with an an average service life of 12 years, and 15 possible in the near term. Add into the equation the supply/demand effect of even a 10% electric fleet, which will reduce the price of gasoline and keep it low for just about ever. Add into the equation the non-recycleability of electric car batteries (IC's are fully 80% recycled at this time); The need to scarify 50,000 pounds of virgin earth to acquire the rare earths required to build JUST ONE CAR BATTERY; The fact that car battery fires cannot be extinguished, and burn with stupendous heat (bye-bye, home and family!); The fact that EV's are mediocre sellers even with NO fuel tax and an average of $12,000 in tax credits per car, and much more. The equation yields this solution: Our fleet will remain blended, and will grow to encompass technologies we haven't yet discovered, for decades and generations to come. So don't worry about fuel for that beloved '57 Chevy - gas will be around for your kid's kid's kids to enjoy!
In reply to BruceK :
Keep in mind, efficiency improvements in other places (lower power computers, fridges, A/C units, etc.) have reduced power demand over time. So while an electric car is a large increase in power draw, there's also some extra capacity in the system from other improvements to partially offset the impacts on the power grid, etc.
Bruce, can you back up any of those statements with data? The current draw increase for example, seems a little implausible. And are you talking peak draw or average?
And how are you deciding that the batteries are non-recyclable? That is at odds with what I've read.
Streetwiseguy said:There has to be a "but" or an "except in this case" built in there somehow. It just seems like corporate suicide to me.
Corporations only sell what people want to buy. If there is a 12 year turn around on ICE cars and EV's are both a growing market and in many European countries a requirement Audi and others are only going to capitalize on a newly blooming market.
Ford is following the lead of GM to EV's. but they are doing it sooner and with Vehicles that are a bigger share of the market.
Roughly 100 years ago ICE was replacing horses. So EV's are replacing ICE's
With regard gasoline getting oil is getting harder and more expensive. It's no longer a case of some pipe and a wooden tower . Now it's in the frozen attic or deep water. We will have gas for the next 20-30 years but it will become more and more expensive. Places like Saudi Arabia, Russia, etc already see the end of demand and want to sell what they've got while the demand is still there.
I have two friends with Model 3s, and no home charging infrasructure. They've clearly decided that the car and what it offers negates the "barriers" to charging.
dean1484 said:Audi I can see. Now if VW did this that would be a game changer and most likely kill them as a brand.
I do a ton of work for housing authority and apartment complex's and the like. I also do lots of work in the urban areas of the city of Boston where the "regular" folks live. Like Dorchester or Roxbury MA. There is no way they can put the infrastructure in place in these locations to alow for electric cars. It will just not work.
This is a typical street: (I am actually working on a building one block over just like these)
If they do install chargers when the local's figuar out that there is copper in the cables of the chargers those will be stolen.
Electric cars are only going to work for the upper-middle class. For those "nice" sleepy towns west of Boston where the median income is over 100K.
Instead of pounding forward with this stuff more needs to be done to facilitate better safer and affordable transportation for the urban areas around citys. You talk electric vehicles to people in these locations and they think you are a complete idiot and they get aggravated as they feel like they re getting left behind. Billions in electric car development for the afluent privileged few being touted as the game changer for all when in fact it really will only work for a very specific segment of the population. I am not a huge fan of linkage type funding but I think that for every dollar that is given by the state and feds to people as rebates for there electric car purchase an equal amount needs to be invested in public transportation.
What is the average commute of an Urban worker? That's all that is really required. Hence long range and battery intensive cars with their attending costs will be lower.
Next, corporations are finding that work from home is 23% cheaper and up to 42% more productive. So in the next decade you will start to see office buildings converted to apartments. And yes they will solve charging issues.
Stealing copper wire? Seriously? Live 440 volt? Sounds like an effective way to prove Darwin's theory. Since they use copper wire in street lights, traffic lights, modern parking meters, etc. I doubt it will be much of a problem. Especially since the revenue to maintain streets will come from those charging stations.
If you had been around the last time there was a serious change in transportation you would have seen the horse yield to the ICE's. The benefits like lack of horse poop and urine made oil grease and gas seem like a great deal. Now we're going away from the mess of oil based transportation.
It started with the wealthier families and because of the status and ease of cars over horses, the horse lost and ICE won.
History does repeat itself.
I don't think the cables are live until the car and the charger conduct a "handshake". And trust me yes they will find a way to do it. Thieves are amazingly resourceful.
I think it's significant to remember that at the dawn of the age of ICE vehicles, the infrastructure for fuel distribution did not exist.
There were no gas stations, pipelines, refineries, etc. Gasoline was sold by the gallon at local corner pharmacies.
We don't build infrastructure first. We build consumer desire first and develop markets. Industry then develops infrastructure over time.
Also...
While gasoline distribution chains were being developed, so were highway systems. There were no roads when ICE cars first came to market.
Asphalt is a petroleum product. Petroleum industry benefited from the growth of ICE engines AND from the growth and development of the highway system.
There is no comparable parallel with electric cars. You can't build a road out of electricity.
So we will always need petroleum, even with ICE vehicles. If for no other reason, we will need it to build roads. Home heating oil, heavy industry, diesel engines, rails, ships, etc, etc, etc. There are a ton of things we will need petroleum for for a very long extended period of time. It's not going away.
I admire the bold move on the part of Audi. We shall see...
dean1484 said:I don't think the cables are live until the car and the charger conduct a "handshake". And trust me yes they will find a way to do it. Thieves are amazingly resourceful.
There has to be live voltage to start the charging process. You don't insert your credit card and have some little gnome chisel your numbers and then flip a switch.
We aren't having a lot of trouble keeping street lights working, stop lights working. Etc. City roads are different from abandoned buildings. A few arrests for $12 worth of copper it takes a fair amount of work to get will have the criminal set looking for easier targets
With camera's it's easy to keep an eye on things without the expense of patrols etc. ATM's have been broken into but video records caused most of those to be caught. The city can buy camera's pretty cheap and with oncoming AI not even need a human to monitor.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:I think it's significant to remember that at the dawn of the age of ICE vehicles, the infrastructure for fuel distribution did not exist.
There were no gas stations, pipelines, refineries, etc. Gasoline was sold by the gallon at local corner pharmacies.
We don't build infrastructure first. We build consumer desire first and develop markets. Industry then develops infrastructure over time.
Well said!
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:Also...
While gasoline distribution chains were being developed, so were highway systems. There were no roads when ICE cars first came to market.
Asphalt is a petroleum product. Petroleum industry benefited from the growth of ICE engines AND from the growth and development of the highway system.
There is no comparable parallel with electric cars. You can't build a road out of electricity.
So we will always need petroleum, even with ICE vehicles. If for no other reason, we will need it to build roads. Home heating oil, heavy industry, diesel engines, rails, ships, etc, etc, etc. There are a ton of things we will need petroleum for for a very long extended period of time. It's not going away.
I admire the bold move on the part of Audi. We shall see...
Yes Petroleum isn't going away, we're just using up the easily found stuff. The deep Ocean, Arctic, small pools that cost more to develop than is recovered are what we have to look forward to. That will drive up costs where other alternatives get another look.
They are already recycling plastic to make roads in Europe. And concrete isn't a petroleum product.
Yes mining and construction is mostly done with diesel but it's only a matter of time before that equipment is electrified.
With most construction equipment the weight of batteries is a good thing rather than a problem to work around.
In reply to frenchyd :
That's true, but most heavy construction and mining equipment does not operate near available power, so charging is a real problem. We'd have to run a good sized generator to recharge. That won't work.
I believe the mining industry is starting to use EVs because it's a whole lot easier to not suffocate with them. And mines definitely have access to power.
I think saying that "most" heavy construction does not have access to power is picturing a very specific job, I'm having trouble thinking of what it is, at least in the US. There are certainly a bunch of pieces of construction equipment that could electrify easily, such as rollers/compactors. Others will need the sheer amount of energy that's best served by ICE. It won't be all or nothing, it'll be a gradual change as new tech and new techniques develop. And it will likely never be a complete change. But there was a time when steam ruled, too.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to frenchyd :
That's true, but most heavy construction and mining equipment does not operate near available power, so charging is a real problem. We'd have to run a good sized generator to recharge. That won't work.
I think you forget I worked for Caterpillar, John Deere, and Ingersol Rand for most of my professional career.
One of the first things done on a construction site is to bring power in. Quarries too!
Until the power is there generators are there. Sometimes massive Standby generators, bigger than I sold to regional Hospitals.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Keith, remember trains are electrified. Getting miles of rail cars with hundreds of tons of weight rolling is a function of electric motors.
Mark me in the highly skeptical column on this; that's only 4 1/2 years away. For me this is total PR driven.
While a natural gas power plant (charging station) burns cleaner than coal, my understanding is it's not hugely cleaner than gasoline. I also don't know it's energy content I.E. do you need to burn more natural gas to get the equivalent amount of energy (gasoline vs natrual gas)? Also EVs are heavier and as such require more energy to move them.
The other component is the manufacturing of new vehicles creates emissions. If we simple drove our cars for 15 years versus say 12 years, how much would that lower emissions?
2036 or 2046 maybe but I just don't see 2026 happening.
In reply to Tom1200 :
I agree that it feels PR driven, even after reading the article I think this was based on. That said, to me this still makes a certain amount of sense - a large market in Europe for VW/Audi was for Diesel powered vehicles, and between screwing themselves with Dieselgate and a general policy move away from encouraging diesels, they have to do something to stay relevant. Going electric for their volume models makes sense from that perspective.
VW already has a bunch of electric vehicles (for example the ID.3 and ID.4), and I think it would make sense to have the smaller sibling (Audi) that caters to a slightly less price sensitive crowd try to adapt that technology for use in other cars.
As to, would we make better use of resources if we kept cars on the road longer, I think that has been looked at and it does make a fairly noticeable difference. One doesn't rule out the other, though.
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