I guess it's not a huge supprise considering the Diesel Saga, and the fact the Audi and Porsche were dumping huge amounts on family money to fight each other, but 18 years at the top is a lot of history to see go away.
http://www.racer.com/wec-le-mans/item/135809-audi-ends-wec-lmp1-programme
Aww, man. That's a shame.
As you say with DieselGate and the Stuttgart branch doing so well it was only a matter of time.
I assume (hope) they will stay in the GT category though with the R8. I have to wonder with the popularity of GTLM both in Europe and over here in the Weathertech series I do wonder if it will ultimately become the main category for sports cars again. Look at the amount of publicity Ford have got for winning the GTLM-PRO class this year with the GT compared to Porsche's overall win. And while Ferrari and Porsche are complaining that the Ford is more of a race car, the GT race car is far far closer to the road car than either the 488 or 911. The next 911 GT is supposed to be going mid-engine to keep pace with Ford and Ferrari. The top class is always the most expensive and by extension not necessarily the most populaced, but the issue is now it's only GTLM (pro and Am combined) had 27 entries at this year’s LeMAns while LMP1 only had 9 entries.
Adrian_Thompson wrote: The next 911 GT is supposed to be going mid-engine to keep pace with Ford and Ferrari.
I guess there are very lax homologation rules?
And now your down to only 4 cars (2-Porsche, 2-Toyota) in LMP1. The class is amazing from a tech standpoint, but they look like they have priced themselves out of existance. You have to wonder how long Toyota or Porsche will stick around??
Audi has got a pretty big customer program with the GT cars, so I don't see that going anywhere.
z31maniac wrote:Adrian_Thompson wrote: The next 911 GT is supposed to be going mid-engine to keep pace with Ford and Ferrari.I guess there are very lax homologation rules?
From what I read 2017 rules are apparently very lax on verbiage for engine location. They are testing at Sebring this week and the 911(or Cayman??) definately looks to be mid engine.
If they start going down that road, we'll start sliding toward the old GT1 days....
On the plus side, Formula E seems to be doing well...
Adrian_Thompson wrote: As you say with DieselGate and the Stuttgart branch doing so well it was only a matter of time. I assume (hope) they will stay in the GT category though with the R8. I have to wonder with the popularity of GTLM both in Europe and over here in the Weathertech series I do wonder if it will ultimately become the main category for sports cars again. Look at the amount of publicity Ford have got for winning the GTLM-PRO class this year with the GT compared to Porsche's overall win. And while Ferrari and Porsche are complaining that the Ford is more of a race car, the GT race car is far far closer to the road car than either the 488 or 911. The next 911 GT is supposed to be going mid-engine to keep pace with Ford and Ferrari. The top class is always the most expensive and by extension not necessarily the most populaced, but the issue is now it's only GTLM (pro and Am combined) had 27 entries at this year’s LeMAns while LMP1 only had 9 entries.
Ford manufactured that publicity (and did it very well) with the whole "return to Le Mans, 50 years later" shtick. Audi's problem is that the only news is if they lose.
I really hope LMP1 doesn't go away. They're far more interesting cars than F1 cars are from a technical standpoint. Maybe another manufacturer will step up - an overall win at Le Mans is still a major publicity coup.
That's a shame, but not unexpected. I guess since the diesel marketing tie-in died & cost them a bundle there was no longer any business case. I loved the R8's, not so much the R10's and Peugot 908's that were legislated into existence by the FIA.
Their Formula E destination may be the future but sound is a big part of spectating at motorsports, even on TV. I don't think there's any prestige attached to that series yet.
Keith Tanner wrote: I really hope LMP1 doesn't go away. They're far more interesting cars than F1 cars are from a technical standpoint. Maybe another manufacturer will step up - an overall win at Le Mans is still a major publicity coup.
With the NA 2.4L V8s, I would have agreed, but IMHO the current turbo/MGU-H/MGU-K setup is very interesting from a technical standpoint. The problem is it's all so secret that you only get dribs and drabs of what's going on.
From what I read elsewhere, it sounds like VW is basically gutting Audi's budget to cover dieselgate. No more Audi racing, no more bespoke Audi platforms. The next A4 gets built on a Jetta, the future A6 & A8 get built on Porsche platforms, the R8 get axed. If true, I think I've bought my last Audi. :(
Keith Tanner wrote: Ford manufactured that publicity (and did it very well) with the whole "return to Le Mans, 50 years later" shtick. Audi's problem is that the only news is if they lose.
Yes they did, but they had something that could generate the news. Audi's budget was way way higher, not just for the on track product but for the hospitality at the event etc. The appetite was there for the GT win.
Keith Tanner wrote: I really hope LMP1 doesn't go away. They're far more interesting cars than F1 cars are from a technical standpoint. Maybe another manufacturer will step up - an overall win at Le Mans is still a major publicity coup.
I hope something stays at the top, but does it need to be LMP1-H? It's always the way with no F1 racing. A series enters a golden age. Teams and manufacturers join this exciting, expanding series. The more competitors join, the more interest so more join. But then the costs to be on top go up and up until you hit the tipping point where you suddenly find yourself on the wrong side of the cost/benefit ratio and it implodes. It happened with Group C, it happened with Supertouring in BTCC, it happened in DTM, it happened in American LeMans series.
While people love to hate on it, Grand Am worked really hard from the start to control costs, which usually (unfortunately) means limiting technology. It may not have had a meteoric rise in popularity, but it's still here.
Production based GT racing has held and grown its popularity for years as the cars need to be homologated. Perhaps that will win out in the end. Even the GTLM classes are getting very expensive and may be in danger of imploding in 2-5 years’ time. GT3 racing has far tighter rules than GTLM and the cars need to be far closer to stock, hence rear engined 911's and Ferrari's with the same basic chassis and transmission as the road car, neither is the case with next year’s GTLM cars.
People, me included, keep talking about the glory days of Group C. I can’t find the figures now, but I’ve heard that a new Porsche 962 cost around $200K new in the 80’sThat’s $450K in 2016 money. Even an LMP2 car costs €460K plus another €87K for the engine package. That’s €547K. That’s basically $600K for a 2nd a semi spec car in a 2nd tier class within the series. The LMP1 cars would cost millions to even buy if the manufacturers would even let you race them. The problem with advances in technology and understanding of that technology is you can’t put the genie back in the bottle so the cost to stay competitive goes up and up.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson:
For a slight diversion, there's an interesting article about GT4 in the Oct Racecar Engineering. Turning into a very popular class. GT racing is in really good shape right now- in spite of the costs.
The prototype racing- comes and goes. But with the rules the way they are- LMP1 pretty much is a very expensive, high tech class, whereas LMP2 is much closer to Chassis-engine- racing- which is really close to the Group C we all liked. P2 has much bigger fields, to the point that here in the US, it's THE prototype class.
LMP1 is FIA's way of looking like they care about Kyoto.
(on a side note, it's highly unlikely that the GT motor will ever power a P2 car- the DP car is as far as it will go other than the GT)
alfadriver wrote: The prototype racing- comes and goes. But with the rules the way they are- LMP1 pretty much is a very expensive, high tech class, whereas LMP2 is much closer to Chassis-engine- racing- which is really close to the Group C we all liked. P2 has much bigger fields, to the point that here in the US, it's THE prototype class.
Agree 100%
Keith Tanner wrote: I really hope LMP1 doesn't go away. They're far more interesting cars than F1 cars are from a technical standpoint. Maybe another manufacturer will step up - an overall win at Le Mans is still a major publicity coup.
I grew up and got into the series around the time Audi started dominating with the R10s, and remember it being pretty much just Audi vs. Peugot for years... and some years it being more Audi vs. LeMans than Peugot. So I don't see LMP1 stopping because of it only being two manufacturers, especially if Toyota can bring a car as competitive as they did this year (hell, maybe they can finally win the whole thing!). Maybe some regulation tweaks to attract new manufacturers, but otherwise the series will continue. Losing the hybrid branding on their fastest, most glamorous class would be too much for FIA-WEC. Audi's withdrawal probably stems mostly from Audi and Porsche being part of the same conglomerate, and the troubles they've been having. The marketing for Audi vs Porsche, as mentioned elsewhere, also doesn't help (it being more of a story when Audi loses than wins vs the very positive Porsche return story + historical domination).
Combine Porsche and Audi to make a great race car.
Again.
codrus wrote:Keith Tanner wrote: I really hope LMP1 doesn't go away. They're far more interesting cars than F1 cars are from a technical standpoint. Maybe another manufacturer will step up - an overall win at Le Mans is still a major publicity coup.With the NA 2.4L V8s, I would have agreed, but IMHO the current turbo/MGU-H/MGU-K setup is very interesting from a technical standpoint. The problem is it's all so secret that you only get dribs and drabs of what's going on.
Oh, I do love the tech in modern F1 cars. And I've been lucky enough to get a pretty close look at it. But any difference from team to team is on the micro scale. The LMP1 cars vary so much, we got to see stuff like turbo gas V4s with flywheels race against naturally aspirated diesel V8s with supercaps against turbo diesel V6s with batteries - or something like that.
And yes, Ford had an excellent year from a publicity standpoint. They'll lose the "returning after 50 years!" story next year, so it'll be interesting to see how much coverage they get. The GT racing is pretty wild, although the random Ferraris careening around in GT-AM seem to do more damage than good.
This saddens me. I always rooted for Audi. I was a big fan of how Dr. Ullrich did things.
The good news is that Ullrich isn't going to disappear. He'll be working on something.
Did Leena Gade have some inside info? When ever I think of Audi and the 24hour I think of her.
My daughter and I watched a program about Audi that focused on her and I have to give it a bit I credit for providing both motivation and approval for girls to do what they want to do with out regard for what are preconceived notions about what they should do.
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