So I've read a lot about it, and it seems like it's a pretty good idea to do after a rebuild. I've also read that if you mark the turbine and compressor wheel's positions, you can just put them back where they were. I rebuilt the turbo on the chump car, and somehow the freakin' marks came off the wheels. Any good places to send it to have it balanced? Cheap? The local shop wants $100-$150 to balance it! I've heard internet rumblings that a balance should cost anywhere from $20-$65. Any ideas?
On a real budget I'd think long and hard about doing it a more GRM way. I mean the bearing is already pretty darn good. Spin it, mark the bottom of the wheel where it stops. See if it repeats. Grind a little, do it again, like an R/C airplane prop. The only thing I don't know is if the wheels have to be balanced independently, although I'd guess not.
16vCorey wrote: So I've read a lot about it, and it seems like it's a pretty good idea to do after a rebuild. I've also read that if you mark the turbine and compressor wheel's positions, you can just put them back where they were. I rebuilt the turbo on the chump car, and somehow the freakin' marks came off the wheels. Any good places to send it to have it balanced? Cheap? The local shop wants $100-$150 to balance it! I've heard internet rumblings that a balance should cost anywhere from $20-$65. Any ideas?
There's a place up near Fort Wayne that will do it for about $65. Let me know if you need the contact info.
http://lindskog.com/
All the T3's I've done were balanced as separate parts.
Just screw 'em back together and they're good to go.
Shawn
Trans_Maro wrote: All the T3's I've done were balanced as separate parts. Just screw 'em back together and they're good to go. Shawn
All turbo's are balanced as separate parts.. All parts should be balanced as one unit afterwards. It is false to think they will go back together and be balanced. Here's the deal. If i get them all balanced separately, each part has an imbalance still in the part. Nothing is perfect. If you were to get it back together and get the imbalance's directly 180 degrees from each other you'd be ok. However, you for some reason were able to get them in phase, creating a constructive modality for the imbalance vectors... Your new turbo would last about 1.325562 seconds.
Marking and putting them back together is smart. A small triangle file can be used to mark a small line across the shaft end, nut and impeller.
In reply to huge-O-chavez:
Sorry man, I mark mine when they come apart but I've swapped compressor wheels without trouble.
I was told this by a turbo shop I buy my parts from, apparently the old T3's were held to a very high tolerance on the individual parts and it creates very few balance issues.
All five of the units I've put back together have lived more than 1.2342323532146246742376 seconds.
In fact, they're all still running.
Shawn
Trans_Maro wrote: In reply to huge-O-chavez: Sorry man, I mark mine when they come apart but I've swapped compressor wheels without trouble. I was told this by a turbo shop I buy my parts from, apparently the old T3's were held to a very high tolerance on the individual parts and it creates very few balance issues. All five of the units I've put back together have lived more than 1.2342323532146246742376 seconds. In fact, they're all still running. Shawn
Then you got lucky.. I used to do this in a production environment. I was responsible for the fit, form and function for assembly lines that made about 600-700 turbos per day. We built stuff with a million mile warranty. So, 5 data points are statistically insignificant to me.
All turbo parts are balanced to a "very high tolerance". We're talking thousandths of a gram-mm. The ball bearing turbos are a little more forgiving and quite frankly balanced to a lower(higher number) tolerance than the journal bearing units. I
I also used to be the guy who got buckets of parts back from truck dealers and moron's who thought stacking 5 edgejuicedogbullyweiner boxes on top of each other would never hurt their engine. I've seen more broken turbo's than I can recall. If you don't want to take the time to balance the assembly, then its just a matter of time before you get an early life failure.
tuna55 wrote: On a real budget I'd think long and hard about doing it a more GRM way. I mean the bearing is already pretty darn good. Spin it, mark the bottom of the wheel where it stops. See if it repeats. Grind a little, do it again, like an R/C airplane prop. The only thing I don't know is if the wheels have to be balanced independently, although I'd guess not.
really?
100k rpm? really?
You could always just put it together and run it with the engine under load. If it lasts for motre then 5 minutes the balance is close enough. You might go through a few rotor assemblys but they are junkyard cheap.
huge-O-chavez wrote:tuna55 wrote: On a real budget I'd think long and hard about doing it a more GRM way. I mean the bearing is already pretty darn good. Spin it, mark the bottom of the wheel where it stops. See if it repeats. Grind a little, do it again, like an R/C airplane prop. The only thing I don't know is if the wheels have to be balanced independently, although I'd guess not.really? 100k rpm? really?
In this instance I know that you're technically right, but I'll bet you're just a bit off if you were to do a sensitivity study. I, being an engineer, of course agree with you, but as transmaro pointed out, he hasn't seen an issue without doing it at all. That's not to say that you're going to achieve OEM quality, or anything close to it at all by doing it this way, or by not doing it at all, but if you were doing it for the challenge and/or Lemons and/or a limited use DD, you might never notice the difference. The cost of balancing might not be worth it. I know if I was building a project car for the challenge I would just slap it together after checking it like I outlined. The OEM turbo lasted 240k miles in my Volvo, likely without being taken care of at all. I'd easily accept 1/10th that lifespan.
So, in short., I agree with you given a big enough budget. On a small scale it probably is okay to do whatever so long as you're okay with the risk.
tuna55 wrote: So, in short., I agree with you given a big enough budget. On a small scale it probably is okay to do whatever so long as you're okay with the risk.
That's just it, we're building this thing for the Chumpcar Nashville 24 hour race. I'd really rather this thing not come apart at hour 2. I've heard internet stories of people walking into their local rebuilder with a center section and 20 minutes and $20 later have a balanced center section. My local shop wants $100-$150 to do it. What's up with that? Yes, it's a chump car, and yes, we're cheap, but I also want it done right. But $150 seems out of line considering I can get a new Chinese Garrett knock off on ebay for $100.
16vCorey wrote:tuna55 wrote: So, in short., I agree with you given a big enough budget. On a small scale it probably is okay to do whatever so long as you're okay with the risk.That's just it, we're building this thing for the Chumpcar Nashville 24 hour race. I'd really rather this thing not come apart at hour 2. I've heard internet stories of people walking into their local rebuilder with a center section and 20 minutes and $20 later have a balanced center section. My local shop wants $100-$150 to do it. What's up with that? Yes, it's a chump car, and yes, we're cheap, but I also want it done right. But $150 seems out of line considering I can get a new Chinese Garrett knock off on ebay for $100.
Well, this is the first place I'd check, but I'd try to get some data together to see just how many folks (like transmaro) have gotten away without doing it. Maybe contact the turbo manufacturer, seriously, and just try to get a fellow gearhead on the phone.
I'd do it, but I never have tried it, I've only marked them before, so I am not a real data point.
16vCorey wrote:tuna55 wrote: So, in short., I agree with you given a big enough budget. On a small scale it probably is okay to do whatever so long as you're okay with the risk.That's just it, we're building this thing for the Chumpcar Nashville 24 hour race. I'd really rather this thing not come apart at hour 2. I've heard internet stories of people walking into their local rebuilder with a center section and 20 minutes and $20 later have a balanced center section. My local shop wants $100-$150 to do it. What's up with that? Yes, it's a chump car, and yes, we're cheap, but I also want it done right. But $150 seems out of line considering I can get a new Chinese Garrett knock off on ebay for $100.
I wish they were $100, they are always more then that with shipping...
digdug18 wrote: I wish they were $100, they are always more then that with shipping...
$110 shipped. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HONDA-CIVIC-D16-T3-T4-T04E-TURBOCHARGER-57-A-R-TURBO-/250648441747?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a5bcfb393
I would be willing to bet money that putting it together with rudimentary balancing will produce a longer living turbo than a Chinabay piece. I am certain that at $110 shipped they aren't doing any precision balancing.
all very good but let's not turn this into a thread about ebay turbos.
I need to get 2 turbos balanced. I called up majestic turbo here in texas and they quoted me $100 BOTH to machine a backplate for a larger wheel and to balance, so their balancing must be less than $100. Probably closer to $60.
wow, i haven't seen them that cheap, I'll have to check out his other listings... love me some good quality cheap china parts
digdug18 wrote: ... love me some good quality cheap china parts
Unfortunately those terms don't hang out together very often.
In reply to huge-O-chavez:
I think we're seeing both extremes of the scale here.
You handle production of million-mile-warrantied parts and I play with junkyard T3 turbos that are already 30 years old.
Balacing is very important, no doubt.
If one of my turbos E36 M3s the bed, I just go pony up $50.00 for another core, throw $100.00 of overhaul parts at it and get back to business.
Production parts are a whole different world.
If this were on a restoration or a serious race car, spend the bucks and do it right.
This is going on a beater race car so just find what level of budget vs quality you're after and have at it.
Shawn
Call Charlie Brown at Evergreen Turbo and see what he will do it for. I am very happy with the work he did for me. He is in FL.
Thanks for the input everyone. I called my local shop today and found out that the $100-$150 quote was if I gave them a complete turbo. They balance the wheels separately, then together, outside of the turbo. Since I've just rebuilt it, I can just take them the wheels and shaft, and they'll to it for $80. That's still higher than a lot of places, but worth it to not have to worry about shipping, and have the piece of mind that the turbo will last a 24 hour race.
16vCorey wrote: Thanks for the input everyone. I called my local shop today and found out that the $100-$150 quote was if I gave them a complete turbo. They balance the wheels separately, then together, outside of the turbo. Since I've just rebuilt it, I can just take them the wheels and shaft, and they'll to it for $80. That's still higher than a lot of places, but worth it to not have to worry about shipping, and have the piece of mind that the turbo will last a 24 hour race.
Here's a fun thing for you in addition, ask them how far out of balance it was when you sent it to them before they do anything. Just for a data point. Then ask them what their balance tolerance is.
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