In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
Perhaps not in all (or even most?) w2w racing. But when there's 75 cars piloted by drivers of all experience levels with a 20+ second lap time differential all on track together for hours on end, point-byes are still relevant... and if anything, probably should be more so once getting into a lapped traffic situation.
In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
Agreed. NEQ Audi here in the Northeast started using signals several years ago by the German standard - I'm moving here. Universally, both our students and experienced drivers got it wrong.
we switched to "pass me here" and all issues disappeared.
The issue we most notice as troublesome is a car leaving the signals on, and another car "taking the pass" without the lead car realizing. We've had a few close calls that way.
We are windows down at PCA events, with arm out pass indicator, but looking at turn signal passing, using the US convention of passing the side of the signal. Race cars have no window down option so they use turn signals. Also, our handicapped drivers use turn signals, so it is a confusing policy.
Something I haven't seen mentioned is that door airbag function is/ was limited with windows down. Don't know how many vehicles that applies to today.
In reply to wvumtnbkr :
It's an arms flapping out the window rule for nhra
sobiloff said:Maybe age has addled my brain, but I could swear when I drove the 'ring the instructor has me signal on the side I wanted the passing car to pass me on, i.e. left signal = pass me on the left.
I thought, since the 'Ring is technically a public toll road, you had to pass on the left because that's the law in Germany.
Could it be different sometimes? Every Touristfarhten video I have seen, everyone religiously passed only on the left.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:sobiloff said:Maybe age has addled my brain, but I could swear when I drove the 'ring the instructor has me signal on the side I wanted the passing car to pass me on, i.e. left signal = pass me on the left.
I thought, since the 'Ring is technically a public toll road, you had to pass on the left because that's the law in Germany.
Could it be different sometimes? Every Touristfarhten video I have seen, everyone religiously passed only on the left.
Tourist days it's a public toll road. Racing events it's officially closed for the event, so the rules of the event apply instead.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:A couple thoughts:
First, flashing turn signals on the opposite side to the one you want the other driver to pass on implies that you're moving that direction, but you're not. The car being passed is supposed to hold his line and let the passing car go off-line to pass, so it's the passing car that is "moving".
Second, turn signals for passing only work if every car on track has turn signals. Purpose-built race cars usually don't, and production cars modified into race cars often have them either removed or made inoperable by other modifications (custom wiring harness, replacement of steering column, etc).
(Then, of course, we have to consider BMWs... :) )
as an owner of a BMW we would like to remind you.... It's not that we don't use our turn signals, it's that your plebeian eyes can't see the luxurious hues that our turn signals emit :-D
Notice holes in the Lexan rear windows on many cars; to relieve cabin air pressure and drumming?
"You signal the direction you’re going to move so the overtaking driver can act accordingly."
The correct point-by is to remain on the line and tell the overtaking driver on which side to pass. That means you use your signal the same way you use your arm.
In reply to Joneasterling :
Predictability is key to safely overtaking. If drivers were able to choose what they liked best, you could have multiple options, which leads to confusion.
I've always wondered about clubs that require convertible and open cockpit drivers to wear arm restraints, but the windows down dirvers were fine without them :-)
Here in the UK no organizer would let you out with windows down unless you have a safety net plugged in. Otherwise the rule is you can have about 2 or so inches rolled down if you wish for ventilation. The safety aspect is about flying debris which is a good argument but also a shattering glass in your face is not great for safety either. So I can see an argent for both UK and US rules but I would prefer 3/4 rolled up personally.
In terms of point-by's we use indicators to say we are staying on the side of the track so feel free to overtake and the other side which is again different from US. I don't recall anyone actually using their hand to point someone by before. To be honest as well I would always tell people to not worry about pointing people past or worry about getting in the way, just drive and let the fast cars find their way past as I do same as the Touristfarten mentality of making you intentions very clear as early as possible otherwise worrying about getting out the way or waving thanks to people for moving can be quite distracting.
CraftyBrewer said:We are windows down at PCA events, with arm out pass indicator, but looking at turn signal passing, using the US convention of passing the side of the signal. Race cars have no window down option so they use turn signals. Also, our handicapped drivers use turn signals, so it is a confusing policy.
Something I haven't seen mentioned is that door airbag function is/ was limited with windows down. Don't know how many vehicles that applies to today.
Can firmly confirm that a 2010 CTS-V will 100% fire the side curtain airbags in a spin with no impacts, with the windows down. They're like super expensive, single-use, window nets!
I wouldn't want a lot of loose broken glass flying around the inside of the car if I get hit in the door. I also wouldn't want to be dragged over a lot of sharp edges either.
Historic perspective is lacking in all the above comments, maybe because you didn't read the SCCA GCR in 1960 or thereabouts. That rule book said specifically that the front windows needed to be down, or an alternate form of cockpit ventilation must be demonstrated at tech. So the real reason is ventilation. not safety per se. I would much prefer up myself.
Spearfishin said:CraftyBrewer said:We are windows down at PCA events, with arm out pass indicator, but looking at turn signal passing, using the US convention of passing the side of the signal. Race cars have no window down option so they use turn signals. Also, our handicapped drivers use turn signals, so it is a confusing policy.
Something I haven't seen mentioned is that door airbag function is/ was limited with windows down. Don't know how many vehicles that applies to today.
Can firmly confirm that a 2010 CTS-V will 100% fire the side curtain airbags in a spin with no impacts, with the windows down. They're like super expensive, single-use, window nets!
That's not limited function, that's added function. Neat!!
It's amusing to me how manufacturers may take polar opposite reactions to a situation. Like, apparently Honda doesn't allow you to turn stability control off if there is a TPMS fault. Ford, on the other hand, severely limits stability control/shuts it off entirely if there is a TPMS fault.
The other myth I hear from time to time is that windows down, affects performance negatively. Found this article an interesting read on the subject -
https://occamsracers.com/2023/08/12/the-aerodynamics-of-open-windows/
Bottom line, while most of the conclusions are based on theory/ simulation, unless you are passionate about winning at DE, don't worry about it 😜
It's a lot easier to stick the nozzle of a fire extinguisher through a window opening than bash the window in with the base of the extinguisher before turning it back over to use as intended.
I have experience with both up and down windows. Rarely have I needed to signal at the end of a straight at high speed. Normally it is as I come out of a corner. Fine powder dust at Sebring will permeant the entire interior during an off course excursion with windows down. Maybe windows down and exterior point by for novice and up and signals for advanced.
Ring is pass only on the left with right signal showing you see the faster car and will give room.
In reply to H2OPro :
Re:dust. You really really don't want to rallycross with windows down, although it is permitted given a window net or arm restraints.
All it takes is sliding through a dust berm and getting muddy/bloody eyes trying to see for the rest of the run to make one decide that it's okay to bake in the car with windows up 
I'm all about windows up! When we teach one-on-one classes, we keep the windows up so long as the AC works. Same thing in rally cars; the windows are always up.
Another big advantage of windows-up is when instructing you can communicate easily with or without comms. Not to mention that GT3 blasting by doesn't deafen you with it's music. ;)
In reply to DaleCarter :
Predicatabiliy is definitely key, which is why tracks in the UK and Europe have designated sides for passing, so you already know which side you'll be passing on, instead of waiting for the car in front to decide for you which side to pass. With designated sides for passing as well, usually the direction of the signal is irrelevant, if you see the signal, that means the driver in front has acknowledged they've seen you and are letting you go, so you can make your pass.
As far as debris from the track coming through open windows goes, I've seen a rock go in the open window and break the rear glass. I've also seen a driver get hit in the face with a rock.
Fortunately both situations did not result in any serious consequence, but I'm sure we can all imagine a scenario where debris coming through the window could hit a driver and result in a more serious crash.
I could accept changing to a windows-up policy, but it’s not an easy choice. There are many benefits every day, every track, every lap like the weather and foreign debris stays out. The noise level from other cars is reduced allowing driver to better hear what her/his car is doing. Sensory overload become less likely. PLUS for me as a right-seat instructor is windows-up would make instructor-to-novice-driver communication so much easier. Older cars and especially dedicated track cars can be super noisy, and I’m not just talking exhaust sounds. Yesterday I sat right seat in a novice’s track-prepared 1972 Porsche 914-4. Fun car to drive and ride, but no fun listening to an engine wailing at 6K RPM just inches behind one’s helmet!
The negative of windows-up is it would require adopting the turn signal trick for giving point bys. Not every track car has turn working signals, so to accommodate everyone we would retain the old hand out the window method. This doubles the places we need to watch for point bys. The other big negatives are related: using turn signals for point by is counter-intuitive and therefore confusing for sender and receiver. Unnecessary accidents are inevitable plus a new problem crops up. Most of us have followed a driver on street with their turn signal blinking for miles. How does this get handled on track?
More important we should hear hear what rapid responders and EMT’s think. I mean how often do they reach an unconscious driver with an inoperative door meaning they would have to break a window to provide assistance or care? If it is pretty common for many of them then unquestionably windows down is still a good idea. If the vast majority say it has never happened then we should consider a change.
I am 100% on board with JG's position here - I've been hit in the face by a bee and have had tire klag come in the open door window and smack my helmet many times. Not to mention driving through a dust field after someone goes off - or worse, driving through my own debris when I spin off track. That last thing FILLS the car with dust and dirt and makes driving safely impossible for several seconds.
This has baffled me for years and while running SCCA TT Max1 class with the (legal alternate) CAM rules I had to literally add windows to the (legal) carbon doors on our car, which will never be rolled up. Such a silly thing. But at least next season when we move to Unlimited we can finally run fixed windows up, right?
Wrong. There is no rule that allows windows up in Unlimited. Which is a real shame! And we are going to push for some changes...
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