93celicaGT2 wrote: Everyone points their fingers at the insurance companies. Auto insurance, home owners insurance operates the SAME way, and there isn't thread upon thread complaining about it.

That's the problem - it doesn't operate the same way. People expect health insurance to cover maintenance. That is not expected of car insurance or home insurance.

If we filed an auto claim every time we needed an oil change, or a homeowners claim when the floors need to be mopped, then they too would be outrageous.

Insurance works as a model when it is used to pay for unexpected / unusual events. The model fails when it is used to pay for everything.

93celicaGT2 wrote:

Snowdoggie wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote:

Snowdoggie wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote: In reply to Duke: OK, I don't post much and I normally avoid political threads like the plague, but I have to chime in on the government healthcare. I love my adopted country, I love so many things about it, I love it enough to have become a Citizen. This country is my home. BUT from the day I arrived it has been beyond me how the most powerful country in the world can have no universal public health system and have such a completely screwed up health system in general. I know most people have entrenched views on this, and no amount of debate will change peoples minds, but I have to have my say while everyone is making disparaging remarks. 1. This country has the highest per capita health spending of any country in the world yet rates 37th in health care systems (World Health Org) 2. Despite the massive spending on health care we rate 50th on life expectancy (Source the CIA the world Fact book) 3. Infant mortality, we rank 37th at 6.37 deaths per 1,000 live birth, behind Cuba for Gods sake On a more personal note, when I still lived in the UK I never met anyone with the following. 1. Had to declare bankruptcy in their each 20's as they were in a car accident (not their fault) and had over $1M (yup million) in legal fee's as they had no insurance 2. Lost their retirement after a snow mobile accident where they were given an emergency tracheotomy that the insurance company retroactively decided wasn't needed. They tried to fight it but ran out of money first 3. I know a woman who absolutely hates her job and hours but can't quit, why? She was in a car accident 15 years ago and still has complications as a result. Ever other job she's looked at in the last 12 years she can't take because a her pre existing condition 4. I've met people turned down for other pre existing conditions like PREGNANCY National health services aren’t the be all and end all, they have issues and problems like everything else. But I always knew that if I had an accident or changed job's I would be fine over there. Not so here. Also a national health system doesn't prevent private insurance and private health schemes, they are very popular in most European countries, but the basics should be taken care of BY THE STATE. I'm lucky, I have a good job with a large company and a choice of health plans, even with that I pay for most of my families health care out of pocket as most of what we do is out of the main stream of recognized 'health care' in this country. It has always been and will continue to be a source of amazement to me that this great country doesn't see fit to look after the health of it's citizens.

+10 My health insurance company just wrote me a letter telling me exactly what benefits MY EMPLOYER are cutting back on this year. I have health insurance through work. Even if you are covered by health insurance you are not really covered. Sickness in this country means a trip to bankruptcy court. This argument about 'government always screws up everything' repeated over and over again is getting to be pretty lame. The bottom line is that the goal of private health care companies is to make money, not make anybody well.

Fixed. You tipped me off when you said it was through your employed. That is not a self-funded account, it's what's called "ASO" standing for Administrative Services Only. Everytime a claim of yours is denied, it's because your employer didn't want to pay it. The insurance company does NOT pay your claims out of their pocket, they're using the employers money. The insurance company in your case makes their money by adjudicating claims,administering benefits, and providing the customer service. And: Making money is the goal of every type of insurance company. It's the goal of everyone for that matter. The doctors and hospitals are treating you, they should be the ones with the goal of making everyone well. The health insurance companies are not capable of caring for you, 99.5% of them have no medical degrees.

Actually I have not had any claims denied except for one involving my dentist cleaning my teeth more times a year than the insurance company liked and that was about $100. I am rather healthy for my age. I don't drink the high fructose corn syrup and and exercise regularly. I received a letter from my health insurance company telling my what benefits for hospitalization they were cutting back on this year. I realized that if I really got sick I would be screwed. The goal of the government based healthcare systems in Europe and Canada is NOT to make money and they are less expensive than our system. Their doctors still make enough money to drive nice cars and live in big houses but their administrative costs are lower. They don't have people sitting around in offices denying claims. They pay doctors and nurses, not administrators and paper pushers. I have friends who are legal administrators who despise dealing with health insurance companies for their employees. The paperwork involved is time consuming and it takes money to process that paperwork. Ask any doctor how much money they spend and how many people they hire to process insurance claims and get payment. There is a lot of waste in the current system.

Again, you've got it messed up again. Your insurance company handles administrative services only. If you got any part of it cut back, it was by order of your EMPLOYER. However, because the insurance company administers the policy, they are responsible for letting you know the changes on a certain level. The insurance company in your case CANNOT legally change your plan without being ordered to do so by your employer. If you believe they have, then you need to report it to your employer immediately. But, i'm 110% sure that they already know that the changes were made.

No. I don't have it messed up. Why are you attacking me?

My employer has a choice of insurance plans. When the contract is up the insurance company can and does make changes on the plans. Prices can go up and benefits can go down. When the changes are too extreme, the employer can and will change to a different plan. No employer has any power to tell an insurance company what product to offer. I have worked as a legal administrator for a law firm in the past and I have been part of the decision making process as to what plans we would offer our employees. I only wish we could have written the policies ourselves down to every detail and chosen how much we wanted to pay for the policies.

This is kind of like showing up at your local Chevrolet dealer and telling the salesman that you want to buy a new Camaro, but you want them to redesign the car especially for you, changing the seating position, making it a mid-engined car and adding an aluminum DOHC 10 cylinder engine. Oh, and you don't want to have to pay more that $25,000 for it either. No. You get to buy the car they offer, they make changes on the car on a yearly basis and if you don't like what they have done with it this year, you better hope that you like what the new Challenger or Mustang looks like.

BTW, my employer also charges me $125 a month for this policy. They do not pay it all for me.

DILYSI Dave wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote: Everyone points their fingers at the insurance companies. Auto insurance, home owners insurance operates the SAME way, and there isn't thread upon thread complaining about it.

That's the problem - it doesn't operate the same way. People expect health insurance to cover maintenance. That is not expected of car insurance or home insurance. If we filed an auto claim every time we needed an oil change, or a homeowners claim when the floors need to be mopped, then they too would be outrageous. Insurance works as a model when it is used to pay for unexpected / unusual events. The model fails when it is used to pay for everything.

I would like to see a system where catastrophic incidents would be covered and you can pay for your own checkups. Instead I see a lot of policies where they will pay for a percentage of your checkups and if you end up in the hospital they stop paying benefits after 15 days no matter what is wrong with you. They make more money from the policy when they do it that way. If the hospital gets stiffed and has to hire a collection agency to go after you while you are dying, hey, that's not their problem.

...and you can get insurance for car maintenance. There is a guy who keeps calling me about once a week to remind me of that fact.

Some how I knew when I started this post, it would end up on health care. Why can't I be that good when picking lottery numbers?

Screw a health care plan. Who needs that. the problem with America is people living too long. Let's cut that life span down. That answers everything -Less gas used in a lifetime -Less medical expenses -Less trash produced in a life time -No need for a pension plan -#$%^ 401K performance

Oh ya, Put me on your will to recieve you cars, things are going to be fine.

Snowdoggie-catastrophic insurance exists. I pay $37 a month for mine. My policy as it is currently offered will likely no longer be an option with any new plan.

Back to the original topic, the part i really dont like about this is at least in california, junkyards are required to destroy all oil pans(although the cast aluminum ones get skipped becasue its too much work), gas tanks, and exhaust systems. Its not much further of a step for them to ruin the engine and transmission in any still running car. With that, and banning the sale of replacement catalytic converters (or raising the price to 4 or 5 times when it used to be as california has done), people wouldnt really be able to keep old cars running anymore.

Snowdoggie, i'm not attacking you, just trying to straighten things out.

Yes, i work for an insurance company, so i may be viewed as biased. But i also know how it works.

Your cut in coverage was done by your employer. Not the insurance company. It's done through a series of negotiations as you alluded to, but the end result is, if the employer isn't happy with what the insurance company is offering, they go elsewhere, or pay more to have the insurance company do it.

I handle 9 large accounts currently, and every one of them have hugely different benefits, because the employer wrote in what they wanted covered, and at what percentage. The insurance company's job in an Administrative Services Only account is to come back and say, "Ok, this will cost XXX dollars. If you want to cut down costs, then here's what we suggest cutting back." The employer never has to do that.

I didn't imply that your employer pays your premiums. Most companies require their employees to pay at least a portion of it. I will say that your employer is paying the majority of the cost, though, and whenever you have a claim that pays out, your employer is footing that bill, not the insurance company. The insurance company writes the check, but it's your employers money.

But it's just a discussion. I agree that the whole health care system here is a crock of E36 M3. But it pays my bills, and i know at least for the 40,000 people that i'm directly responsible for making sure that their rx/medical communicates correctly, i'm doing my part to make sure the system ISN'T berkeleyed. And i do apologize if i was taken as being harsh or attacking. Definitely never my intention.

I dont see this program really affecting anything but the SUV market that interests me. I can see a lot of Suburbans and early Expeditions being traded in for newer stock. Do we really care except for the precedent that all the Buick Century's, Ford Taurus and Dodge Stratus disappear?

Health care costs a lot because of...

1 All of us Docs graduate with a TON of debt and have devoted the best (young) years of our lives with our noses in books

2 Equipment costs a bloody fortune. I'm looking to move and re equip my office and it's literally going to cost close to $400,000

3 Lots of people get treatment for free. A collection rate of 30% is considered good from an ER department. That means the other 7 out of 10 people didn't pay a cent.

4 Overheads are extremely high as lawyers and insurance companies have encumbered health care providers with liability and admin work. That means we need to have way more office staff.

The "usual and customary" charges are a joke. Who sets those? In addition the dental benefit of $1500 hasn't changed in more than 30 years.

Most of the insurance fee schedules are so low that I'd run myself out of business if I accepted them.

I'm continually amazed by the person who buys a 52" TV but balks at taking care of themselves and paying their healthcare bill. Most people have the money, they'd just rather spend it frivolously.

52" TV= $2000. If you agree to give me even my paltry level of health care for the next 5 years for $2k we have a deal.

I would love to pay for my own healthcare and am financially capable. No one wants to let me.

Snowdoggie wrote: I would like to see a system where catastrophic incidents would be covered and you can pay for your own checkups.

It is called a high deductible plan. The premiums are low but the insurance doesn't start paying until your deductible is met for the year. Couple that with an HSA account and it's a great deal (its a good deal even without the HSA). You pay your own way up to a point, but pay the reduced allowed charges as per you insurance provided instead of the inflated charges people with no insurance are charged. If you have the HSA, the money you pay can be all pre-tax dollars as well. Once your deductible is met, the insurance company starts paying, so you are covered if something really bad happens.

However, people are sometimes not the brightest and want everything paid for by someone else. That is the root of the problem in my oppinion.

Update on the original post. After waiting 4 days for a response, the user name and password was issued. Not all of the trade in cars are listed on the form you need to submit. The best advice is to use the wrong vehicle, and wait until the claim is rejected. Hopefully, by then, the vehicle database will be updated correctly. This is the same database that every internet part seller already has, but the goverment has to find it's own way to berkely it up. If you call the help line, the recordings tell you that they're having unusually high call volume, please call back later (like September?) you get a fast busy signal and the system hangs up on you. Great system.

Does this CARS program allow for one to trade in a clunker for a slightly used car or truck,or only barnd new stuff? I ask because while I like not having a car payment on my full-sized van I would rather have something different. I could conceivably trade my van to my father who's 92 Ford E150 is way past tired,and trade his van for a used car,or truck of my liking. The only thing is the car I really want (Mazda5 manual trans)will not tow my camper,so I need to find another vehicle with a 3500lb towing capacity minimum.

Chris

You can only buy new cars, not used. Another interesting fact is that once you trade them in they become property of the government, which means you can't buy them, even for $4,500. After this is all over they go to the junk yard and get crushed, no parting out. At least that's what I heard from the local Ford dealer when I went to ask about one they had.

It's not a flounder if the thread has already derailed, right? So after one week, the "cash for clunkers" program is tapped out:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=8218841&page=1

GOD I can't wait until goverment decides how long I get to live.

Isn't is strange how people are up in arms about government subsidized healthcare but they are not nearly as upset about government subsidized new cars.

Snowdoggie wrote: Isn't is strange how people are up in arms about government subsidized healthcare but they are not nearly as upset about government subsidized new cars.

I'm not quite as upset about government subsidization as I am loosing my right to choose whether or not I want insurance. But yeah, the "here's 4 large of someone else's money to squish your car" sucks too.

poopshovel wrote:

Snowdoggie wrote: Isn't is strange how people are up in arms about government subsidized healthcare but they are not nearly as upset about government subsidized new cars.

I'm not quite as upset about government subsidization as I am loosing my right to choose whether or not I want insurance. But yeah, the "here's 4 large of someone else's money to squish your car" sucks too.

At least we aren't at the point where the government tells you it's time to trade in your car and buy an new one.....yet.

Of course under the current system if the insurance company finds you have a 'pre existing condition' the only choice you have is to pay for insurance and not get coverage or to not pay for insurance and not get coverage.

I'm still surprised that I haven't received many (if any) letters to the editor on the subject.

The bad news is you will receive letters. The good news is they all have to go thru the clunkers website, and after 9 hours of trying, I still have't been able to complete a transaction.

Snowdoggie wrote: Isn't is strange how people are up in arms about government subsidized healthcare....

Especially when you consider that a large percentage of health care already is government subsidized. Want to end the "socialized" medicine? Get rid of Medicare and Medicade... that would be interesting!

I love the comment of "Why change, we have the best health care in the world". That's kind of like say a country where you can only buy 5 series BMW like cars has the best cars in the world, true, but certainly missing the "big view" in a big way!

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh-Quit calling it government subsidized health care. Its GOVERNMENT MANDATED HEALTH INSURANCE

MrJoshua wrote: Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh-Quit calling it government subsidized health care. Its GOVERNMENT MANDATED HEALTH INSURANCE

...and government subsidized new cars.