Challenge Thoughts

You can start with the one above. It is only $500.00 but you are half way there. By the way, this car was offered a few weeks back with engine and transmission still in it for the same price.

http://orlando.craigslist.org/pts/2643992339.html

The link didn't show, maybe it will this time.

I am absolutely tickled 2 Vette's and a Firebird came out to play. I have no doubt that it can be done, honestly! Congratulations on the effort.

I think limiting tires is silly.

What's the difference between someone who knows how to find cheap take off slicks and someone who knows how to find cheap circle track engine parts.

Maybe Andy should be limited to a "street motor" out of fairness to those who can't find a such good deals and build a motor like he does?

I've always wondered why auto-x tires must be DOT approved? I really wish I could use the 18" michelin slicks I got for $10 each on my challenge car. Anyone know why slicks are banned from the auto-x event? They certainly are allowed by the SCCA in mod and prepared classes.

1985 CHEVROLET CORVETTE - $1950 (WEST ATLANTA)

85 CHEVY CORVETTE, 350 TUNE-PORT ENGINE WITH 700R4 TRANSMISSION. ENGINE REBUILT AND HAS MILD CAM. BODY FAIR & INTERIOR DECENT SHAPE. CAR RUNS, STOPS, & STEERS. $1950. OBO MIGHT CONSIDER PARTING OUT. CALL IF INTERESTED IN ANY PIECE. PHONE: 404-429-1620 OR 404-421-5492

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/wat/cto/2639473506.html

In defense of the Vette and Trans Am guys, I purchased a nice condition 95 Trans Am two years back for $1800 and enjoyed it on the street for more than a year. I see C4 Corvettes on Craigslist for very cheap all the time. Waiting and watching for buys of opportunity is the key to a great build.

I think it was great to see two Corvettes at the event. Remember, we're not talking about Z06 C5s but rather older C4s. Heck. The $2k 'Vette was an '84 model. Nobody wants a Crossfire injected 'Vette. As far as its legality, what was the problem? It had a smallblock with a big cam, Fittipaldi wheels that were 20 years out of style and a blown transmission.

I'll admit that I got a screaming deal on my car but I also negotiated well for it. It didn't run and had a smashed quarter panel. My first offer was below scrap value for it. Hey, you gotta' start somewhere, right? I included at least five other V-8 F bodies in my budget for $1,500 or less ASKING price. Their price is my starting point to go down from.

For me the negotiation part of the challenge is the best part. It's what I do for a living so why not use my abilities to buy cheap cars/parts. To have that wiped out by a rule change would bring about "parts store" cars. Very few people can take raw materials and make art like Andy and Bryce. The rest of us mortals have to scour Craigslist and Jegs to find what we need.

Don't worry about us changing too much based upon what Mike suggests.

fastclown wrote: Tires: I think tires should be taken out of the budget and GRM states what's allowed (brand/compound). How is it fair that a guy that has connections (me and others) can get free/cheap tires while most have to use a lot of their budget on tires or fudge the paperwork. Tires are everything at the Challenge, make it a equal playing field for all. Shipping: Why would we penalize someone that lives in the middle of nowhere by making them spend a lot of their budget on shipping, while some people live down the street from some of the best automotive swap meets in the country. Eliminate the shipping costs from the budget and make it an equal playing field for all, no matter where they live. When someone shows off their car anywhere and says "I have 10K in it" does the other guy ask "How much did you spend on shipping?"

I feel like tires need to be part of the budget, I know this was my first year and I wasn't going to be competitive but if I had to buy a new set of hoosiers to be competitive next year I wouldn't bother coming. Maybe people with your connections should help your fellow competitors get free/cheap tires. Also if I buy new hoosiers to start next year for my car can I say the FMV by the time the challenge rolls around is $0 since enough people seem to be able to get them for free.

I agree that shipping should not be included in the budget. It is unfair that some people are located in large market areas with more cars, and parts available. I see it the same as access to tools. I spent more on tools this year than my actual car and I don't have to add that to the budget.

The one rule that gets me is that any labor preformed in a shop has to be included at FMV, yet we have shop cars coming to the event did they do all the work at home? I would love to get a proper alignment/corner balance but I don't feel like spending another $1500 in tools for things I might use once a year. Don't get me wrong it is just a gripe I have and no rule changes can be made to fix that. I kind of like it the way it is.

Also I can see how there were two corvettes at the event, I almost purchased a running C4 with a moldy interior for $800.

fastclown wrote: "I'm not sure why you singled out the two Vettes, but really?" Seriously? I'm not challenging the legality of the 1K car, I'm challenging the rules that let it happen. You show me 3 vettes for under/at 1K with 1K worth of parts to sell and I'm a happy camper. The 2K vette needs to fall under the new tear down rule...

Thats my 2K Corvette and I be glad to take you on as an apprentice and show you how I did it.I have 4 corvettes right now you or anyone can go buy 3 in the Ocala area and 1 in Jax if you want.One is a rolling chassis for 300 bucks just ad your body of choice and driveline.My vette came with a ton of parts that I traded off for other things.Mike my doors are always open to fellow challengers.I can paint weld and fab and would help anyone building there car for the challenge that needed a hand.The seat you think I paid 300 bucks for which I hate can be yours for what I paid for it 100 bucks,it don't fit me.lol.I respect the integrity of the challenge and hope I can contribute something to it in the years to come. The vette will be back next year for another try at it.

Per Schroeder wrote: Purchase price on car shells/projects don't need to include shipping?

I am completely thrilled to see you open to considering a change in the shipping rule!

Seriously, you're going to show me 2 POS vettes with no re-sellable parts on it, much less the 1K in parts that you sold. Thanks for making my point so quickly. I understand it's easier to buy a competitive Challenge car, but is that good for the life of the Challenge. I always thought it was "Who could BUILD....." But then, this is America, buying is easier... Like I said, put the 2 vettes on the cover and lets see what happens to the Challenge. Just saying...

Per is correct, they don't listen to me. They hear me, they just don't listen...

Pro drivers:

I love having pro drivers. All 5 of my runs this year were with 2 people in the car. I've never learned more than the 3 runs I made riding shotgun while a pro drove my car. It enabled me to take a shot a the best and most aggressive run I've ever made, mostly because I learned from the pros. But even so, my time was still 4 seconds off the pro. I like them being available so I can see what my car is actually capable of. Where else can I get a pro to drive my POS?

I think you may be close to something nice with the new rule this year, 5 runs, but 1 must be driven by a team member...

There's a lot you can do with this.

Award for the driver that got closest to (or exceeded) the Pro's time?

Highest finish without a Pro?

Etc...

Work with it!

If you feel the need for a tires rule, how about tapping into Kumho?

Spec the tires, and ask them to provide them at cost to Challengers.

I don't know what your problem is nor do I care. I gave the judges the entire story about my car, with pictures, of how it looked when I bought it and why is was so cheap.

I did see your car however. If that is the best work you can do then I would suggest that you find a team member, like I have, that can make your car a lot more presentable. It appears your work, or lack there of, does not meet the challenge. Next time try putting a little paint on Uranus or at least wipe it down on the inside.

In reply to G1:

If you are gonna play at this game, you'd better not take tips from a clown too seriously.

Defensiveness won't help your case. GRM did not rule it out, so it is Challenge legal. No worries.

As usual some people can't read, maybe that should be part of the Challenge scoring?

Ditch the rally-x idea. The suspension setups are soo vastly different that you'd have a car that does fairly well at one, suck at the other and be mediocre at drags. Many people don't even have the opportunity to see a rally-x so how do you build a car that is competitive in a racing series you've never seen?

The shipping issue is a bit tougher, but I feel it's bogus to have to charge travel expenses to the budget. I just picked up what I hope is my next challenge car. I drove to get it but my buddy had a motorcycle to pick up as well. He and I split the cost of the trip. Do I charge my budget for the fuel, 1/2 the fuel or nothing since I was driving down there to help a friend?
I also agree that colleges should be in a different class, along with pro shops. The point of all this is to have fun but we all want to see how high we can place. To see a team of 30 engineering students build a car really doesn't interest me. To see a guy hammer out a fender on a tree in his backyard, that's grassroots.

Per Schroeder wrote: We had issues with them not wanting to put the Kumho sticker on the front, but I believe they had the rest of the required stickers.

if they don't want those kumho tires I'll take them

What about a "pro" and/or "sponsored" handicap? Any team that has an automotive industry related professional or has sponsorship (from a non-team member) gets an overall points handicap of some sort.

(Flame suit on again)

In reply to Per Schroeder:

It will be interesting to see what you guys come up with for possible changes, and I keep having 2 different ideas floating around the back of my head....

hm.

SVreX wrote: If you feel the need for a tires rule, how about tapping into Kumho? Spec the tires, and ask them to provide them at cost to Challengers.

Victoracers for all! That's actually not a bad idea. Fast enough, but very reasonably priced older tech. I love those tires- my only major issues is poor cold traction. But have run them for years. And they have a wide range of sizes for that tire.

Would make kuhmo look good, I think.

In reply to G1:

Don't feel bad , last year I got ripped a new one on the GRM Facebook page of all places for bringing a civic painted with Tremclad and adorned with vinyl scraps.

"If something looks too good it must be, becasue I can't build that" seems to be the mentality of quite a few.

Tires: Keep the rule the way it is.

Shipping: It shouldn't count... and if it was bought on eBay it should be FMS(Fair Market Shipping)

Concourse: I tend to agree with the clown,

fastclown wrote: To get back to the roots of the Challenge that made it more entertaining to see and read about... make 50% of the scoring on creativity and grassroots engineering. If you want to compete for the overall you should have to work for it, not buy and polish it. The model for this year would have been the N600, hands down it was the total concourse package of years ago. Note that this is concourse scoring, not performance scoring.

Colleges, Large Teams & Shops: Not sure about this one. Part of me says give them their own category separate from the overall, but the other part makes me want to keep them as part of the whole. It feels so good to beat them. :)

Categories: I like the idea of an unlimited class, similar to the Locost with very few rules, and race slicks allowed. That is where the innovation will be.

Autox: Open the track for an hour or two before the autox to let some of the non-pro drivers warm up to the course. Nobody drives for the first 2 hours anyways. Maybe provide a car, a la Top Gear, for competitors to drive?

Someone posted a good idea earlier. They suggested to have 3 lanes. One for competitors warm up runs, one for timed runs and one for pro drivers or something of the sort.

Drags: If rain is on the forecast for Saturday, either open up the drags on Friday afternoon, or stage the top 10-15 cars first on Saturday Morning. That way we at least get a true representation of the 1st 2nd and 3rd finishing order if it rains.

SVreX wrote: Pro drivers: I love having pro drivers. All 5 of my runs this year were with 2 people in the car. I've never learned more than the 3 runs I made riding shotgun while a pro drove my car. It enabled me to take a shot a the best and most aggressive run I've ever made, mostly because I learned from the pros. But even so, my time was still 4 seconds off the pro. I like them being available so I can see what my car is actually capable of. Where else can I get a pro to drive my POS?

I agree^. I could never get close to a Pro on the AutoX. I did, however, ride along for three of the 4 runs Per took in my Volvo and it was an absolute blast. How about making passenger seats mandatory and all Pro runs must include passenger from the car's team? The extra weight could help offset the benefits of the Pro and give the builder some good driving tips...

Also, as some of us discussed, maybe the voting for Competitor's Choice could be done at the Friday night event. By that time most people have seen all the cars and have a good idea of the field to vote. I honestly didn't find my voting stub until Saturday afternoon and then it was too late to vote.