Convince me: PAX

Okay, my local options for autocross seem to mostly either use lumped classes and PAX (the local SCCA chapter, and another SCCA-flavored organization), where my G Street mini competes in the same class as C Street, D Street, E Street, F Street, and H Street. The other group I'm likely to run with (PCA) lumps everything that's not a Porsche into only three classes, which I guess basically makes that outing a 'test and tune' (I could use the practice, and I understand they're good about getting a bunch of runs in, so it's still compelling, and it strikes me as more honest than the PAX thing)...

So, the club two hours south (fortunately I have friends and family to visit there, making it a bit less of a one-trick trek) seems to be the only place that actually runs G Street only against G Street.

I get the appeal of lumping people into a "larger field", but the layer of abstraction of comparing times mathematically derived from the actual time leaves me cold. Cars within G Street aren't identical, I know, and the same course differences which will cause PAX to be less accurate because they're more open or tighter or whatever than the 'average' course the PAX derives from will also show as favoring one car over another, most likely.

As many have observed about racing, we often see results that aren't what the theory suggests, but that's why we have the races. Having a layer of theory after the race and before the official results just bothers me.

Call me impatient, but I'm surprised nobody's weighed in. OTOH, maybe everybody who'd have a strong opinion is standing in a parking lot somewhere right now...

I've been autocrossing with the SCCA and PCA for 20 years and I think you should run with both clubs to get more practice. PAX is a cruel mistress and our local courses look nothing like most "normal" courses so my EMod car gets punished because there is no place for me to use my power advantage over the AS, BS and ES cars that I try to beat in PAX. It's frustrating that I set Fastest Time of Day by 3 seconds over the next closest time but I'm 10th in PAX. However, I get a great sense of satisfaction at events where I place top 5 in PAX. It's not a perfect system but it does give a pretty good idea of how well you are driving.

Isn't PAX still only relevant if your car is built to the limit of the class?

In reply to c0rbin9:

Yes, but your times at autocross are only relevant to other cars with similar prep levels and experience of the drivers

PAX only equalizes the classes; the driver still makes more of a difference, as in any autocross. Course design really makes no difference since you're all driving the same course. If you're running against another G Street car like a Focus ST, you still have to beat him straight up. I really don't see car preparation making much of a difference in Street class, beyond those last few hundredths. I got third in PAX out of 103 last week with my car in absolutely stock condition, right down to the factory alignment, except for tires. At least in my neck of the woods, Street and Street Touring cars tend to dominate the PAX index.

Case in point

Soooooooo....... am I the only one who thought this was referring to the Penny Arcade event at first?

loosecannon wrote: I've been autocrossing with the SCCA and PCA for 20 years and I think you should run with both clubs to get more practice.

Absolutely. I started autocrossing 25 years ago with a local SCCA-flavored club and then moved a short distance a way and ran with the "actual" SCCA group. At that point, PAX was an optional thing you could look at to compare yourself. Either way, yes to practice, in pretty much any flavor.

loosecannon wrote: PAX is a cruel mistress and our local courses look nothing like most "normal" courses so my EMod car gets punished because there is no place for me to use my power advantage over the AS, BS and ES cars that I try to beat in PAX. It's frustrating that I set Fastest Time of Day by 3 seconds over the next closest time but I'm 10th in PAX. However, I get a great sense of satisfaction at events where I place top 5 in PAX. It's not a perfect system but it does give a pretty good idea of how well you are driving.

This sort of gets to what I'm talking about. Racing is simple. It means something to be 0.002 seconds quicker. I feel like it means less when we filter everyone through an index. PAX makes sense to me to get the flavor of how I'm driving, but I don't find it nearly as compelling as the final decision about a competition result.

jstein77 wrote: PAX only equalizes the classes; the driver still makes more of a difference, as in any autocross. Course design really makes no difference since you're all driving the same course.

Last point first: The issue I have in this context is that you may have a very tight course, or a very fast course, but the PAX is generic; the PAX says Car A will be 1.05 times as quick as Car B on an average course. But if Car A is up on power and down on agility to Car B, it will be more than 1.05 on a corners-and-dragstrips course, and less on a course that's all Chicago boxes and slaloms... We drive the same course on the day, but then apply a fudge factor that would probably be different if it were tailored to that course.

Agreed, the driver makes the bigger difference, triply so here in the amateur ranks :) But that is, as you say, outside what PAX addresses.

But there really is a philosophical point here: My Mini isn't exactly the same as a Fiesta ST even though they may be in the same class. But we fight for a time, and the lowest one wins. That is to me more meaningful than any result that happens mathematically.

What would you say if an LMP3 car was declared the winner at Le Mans because it should have only been 90% as fast as an LMP1, but managed to do 91%?

BA5 wrote: Soooooooo....... am I the only one who thought this was referring to the Penny Arcade event at first?

It never crossed my mind, but I have friends who'd have no other idea where to go with it...

And here I thought we were talking about PAX tires from Honda Odysseys.

Our local club announces PAX results and I never do that well there but they also announce raw times and that's where I shine. I find joy where it exists. Just pick a similar car at whatever event you go to and challenge yourself to beat them, it's that simple.

Ransom wrote: Call me impatient, but I'm surprised nobody's weighed in. OTOH, maybe everybody who'd have a strong opinion is standing in a parking lot somewhere right now...

I was! I've run with all 3 clubs, and they all have plusses and minuses. Today's SCCA event went well. 5 runs, no drama. I don't care about PAX, despite it being how they score. I just try to set my own goal time.

Who are you competing with? (The answer doesn't matter, you just have to have an answer).

I used to run with a club that gave out hundreds of trophies per season because it had like 20 classes, and many were 1-3 cars. It was fun, but easy to win your class (I was winner by default more than a handful of times - I have the trophies to prove it).

People whined about wanting to be in bigger groups and wanting to use pax to compete with each other in vastly different cars.

In reply to Robbie:

That's probably exactly what lead to the way things are here, and if that's what folks want, then everything is as it should be.

To answer your question for myself, I need to get out to a few more and find out which of the "tinkerer" classes are competitive. I'm not interested in spending more seasons in the Mini, nor in moving to another new car. Street Modified used to provide me direct competition. My target when I started on the 2002 was a local class called Over Street Prepared, which at that time attracted the fastest folks, both in engineering and driving. That was really what I wanted to compete against. In its heyday, though, I was buying my go-fast parts by serving coffee...

I can appreciate and enjoy doing well in PAX (or at least I will be able to if it ever happens ), but I just can't fathom that it will ever mean as much as beating someone in the same competitive class head-to-head.

I'll work on appreciating PAX as long as I'm in an underpopulated backwater class... I'm not saying it has no value, only that I'm dubious about using it instead of direct time comparison.

Anyhow, thanks for sharing thoughts on how to ponder it... I can see that it has some value. I'm a little surprised that scoring overall on fudge factor doesn't strike more folks as a bit odd, but it sure wouldn't be the first time I was the odd man out about something...

My local autocross group is SCCA and thus we use PAX. The people in H-street love it and tend to do very well in the PAXing score. I just want to go as fast as possible for the fewest dollars and thus painted myself backwards into a partially prepped CSP car.

I'd like it better if there was some way (I hear NASA does something like this) of rating your car on a sliding scale.

In reply to KyAllroad:

In Canada we used to have a wonderful points system. Similar Cars were lumped together into classes like the SCCA does with Stock Class. Every modification had a points value and you just added your points up and that told you what class you were in (15 points=Super Stock, 30 points=Street Mod, 45 points=Mod, etc). Some cars benefited from some mods more than others so you could mix and match what was right for your car. You could even give up R comp tires so other mods could be added. The problem with it was that a lot of Canadian autocrossers also like to travel south for big events and our system did not blend well with the SCCA system. As far as I know, all the clubs in Canada have switched to the SCCA system but IMO it should have been the other way around.

KyAllroad wrote: My local autocross group is SCCA and thus we use PAX. The people in H-street love it and tend to do very well in the PAXing score. I just want to go as fast as possible for the fewest dollars and thus painted myself backwards into a partially prepped CSP car. I'd like it better if there was some way (I hear NASA does something like this) of rating your car on a sliding scale.

Same with my SCCA chapter. Usually a third of our group is H/Street (Mazda3s out the ass). And I'm running an underbuilt C/SP car. It's kind of disheartening outrun a good portion of the field raw and then lose to grocery-getters on good tires. Getting penalized for wanting to spend money and time on building a better car rather than taking a boring car and just jamming sticky tires on it is a bit of a downer.

I hate SCCA in our area (DFW). So few runs. So short runs. So much time standing around or working.

But there should be many other groups running near you. I haven't hit an SCCA event in at least 5 years. Go looking you'll find a group that appeals to you.

PAX to me isn't significant and I basically compare myself to my friends or a couple of other target cars/drivers that are faster than me so that I can judge my improvements.

NickD wrote: Getting penalized for wanting to spend money and time on building a better car rather than taking a boring car and just jamming sticky tires on it is a bit of a downer.

Getting penalized for wanting to spend time and effort becoming a better driver rather than buying a secondary car and just throwing a bunch of additional money at it is a bit of a downer.

Getting penalized for wanting to spend money and effort carefully selecting and building a car to the absolute fullest extent of the rules rather than taking a quick car and just modifying it with no regard for classing competitiveness is a bit of a downer.

My own take aside, I'm still struck by how much emphasis there is on whether PAX works, whether it's fair, and whether it provides and advantage or disadvantage to someone, as opposed to the fundamental aspect of whether a win has as much meaning when it comes as a result of something other than the raw result.

Maybe it left even more of a mark than I thought when I lost a bet on a football game with my dad when I was a kid, when my team won but didn't beat the point spread...

PAX isn't perfect but it's a useful tool for equalizing as best as possible, given the circumstances.

At the end of the day, if you're a fast driver in a well prepared car, you will PAX well.

And more importantly - did you have fun?

Our region has a non-PAX "Run What you Brung" open class for the people Who Can't Math Good And Wanna Learn To Do Other Stuff Good Too.

In reply to Ricky Spanish:

I dig both the "open" class idea and the Zoolander reference.

Ricky Spanish wrote: PAX isn't perfect but it's a useful tool for equalizing as best as possible, given the circumstances. At the end of the day, if you're a fast driver in a well prepared car, you will PAX well. And more importantly - did you have fun?

This is what it comes down to. I've found that when there's a group of us who are all 'pretty quick' and run near identical times when sharing cars or at the rental kart place...you put us in different cars at an autocross and it is still a tight battle in PAX. And when there's obviously a course favoring a certain tire or driveline or something, a "bad day in PAX" is when PAX puts you half a second off where you feel you should be. If you are multiple seconds behind someone, either it's the driver or the car is not prepped close to the limit of the class. The latter is a HUGE prerequesite for PAX coming even close to making sense.