I am going to cost you money on this but drive the 911. I have a 2019 997.2 Cab and it is just about the most perfect all rounder that is made today for under 50K.
Having said that the lack of flaws make it a bit les fun then say something that has some endearing flaws but for daily/track/autocross use there is almost nothing better. Though if it came down to it I would take say a GTS cayman for the same cost if speed is the end goal.
AAZCD said:Guys, just to note in case you missed it: The Boxster is an 'S' model (3.4L 310 hp/266 tq) and the Cayman is a Base (2.9L 265 hp/221 tq). Not that all we care about is HP. ...right?
HP isn't all that matters, but it means that the Cayman is severely overpriced and the Boxster is really a pretty good deal. And the S are much better cars with substantially better engines. Direct injection and a complete departure from the IMS bearing. The base models are just a revised version which (supposedly) doesn't have IMS issues but does still have the part.
Given only those two choices, I'd pick the Boxster without even really thinking about it. What I'd prefer to do though is shop around and find a Cayman S for a few grand more. That 911 is about $8k overpriced and is in the peak of IMS issues, I wouldn't even think about touching that one.
Toyman01 said:I'll be the dissenting voice of reason.
I would never consider trading a Japanese car for a German one.
No way, no how.
Edit to add: If you want a German car, lease it and when the warranty expires, give it back to them.
Spoken like someone that's never driven a modern porsche. I promise I'm not being an elitist, but they are absolutely the better car without a question. Nothing is going to be as cheap to own as a japanese E36 M3box, but the 997.2 (987.2) era of porsches is about as reliable and cheap to own and maintain as german cars get. And the driving experience is 10000% worth the slightly higher cost of ownership IMO. I will say I probably wouldn't recommend one as an ONLY car, but as a primary car, absolutely.
Toyman01 said:I'll be the dissenting voice of reason.
I would never consider trading a Japanese car for a German one.
No way, no how.
Edit to add: If you want a German car, lease it and when the warranty expires, give it back to them.
I disagree.
If you want a contemporary Porsche, buy a CPO car that has just come off lease.
dps214 said:the Cayman is severely overpriced and the Boxster is really a pretty good deal. And the S are much better cars with substantially better engines. Direct injection and a complete departure from the IMS bearing. The base models are just a revised version which (supposedly) doesn't have IMS issues but does still have the part
The market has decided that Caymans command a higher price than Boxsters though.
dps214 said:
The base models are just a revised version which (supposedly) doesn't have IMS issues but does still have the part
This is incorrect. The base engine is the same 9A1 engine as the S, but with port injection and lower displacement.
I have only owned an NA and a 996. I believe the answer to your question is 'yes'. The Cayman is seriously overpriced. The Boxster is more versatile AND more powerful. The hardtop is icing on the cake. You don't get the Cayman roofline but I've never been too crazy about it.
I've driven a Cayman S. I'd rather have another 996. BUT, if you don't want to work on it I'd avoid the 996. The IMS isn't their only issue. I think the Boxster is the one you want, out of the three ads you posted.
Just buy a 996 Turbo. All the power, all the awesome 911-ness and a proper Mezger motor. I love mine,super reliable too.
red_stapler said:dps214 said:the Cayman is severely overpriced and the Boxster is really a pretty good deal. And the S are much better cars with substantially better engines. Direct injection and a complete departure from the IMS bearing. The base models are just a revised version which (supposedly) doesn't have IMS issues but does still have the part
The market has decided that Caymans command a higher price than Boxsters though.
dps214 said:
The base models are just a revised version which (supposedly) doesn't have IMS issues but does still have the part
This is incorrect. The base engine is the same 9A1 engine as the S, but with port injection and lower displacement.
First part: yes, but I can't imagine paying more for a base cayman with more miles than a boxster s with hardtop and less miles. Also I've seen at least a few higher mileage caymanSs for well under $30k, so $25k for a highish mileage base car sounds like a bad deal.
Second part: sorry, I knew it wasn't so, guess I misremembered the ims part. But either way, the S engine is still has at least one improvement over the base engine besides more power.
So, much like Toyman, I also tend to be very shy about owning a German car.
By virtue of instructing at PCA track days I've ended up driving every Porsche model from 356 to 911GT3-RS. I too would recommend buying the S model. I love Caymans more than Boxsters but I think most people would happier with a Boxster S over the base Cayman.
It's not the reliability or lack off (be it perceived or otherwise) but the maintenance intervals and parts prices. I find the extra expense doesn't add to the fun sufficiently to justify the expense.
Test drive both cars, do the math on the running costs and see if it's worth it for you.
I've been a Cayman owner since 2010. My only expenses have been oil changes and tires. That's it.
I appriciate everyone's feedback, but to put closure on this, the dealer sold both the Cayman and the Boxster S last night, but the search for a Cayman S will begin.
In reply to miatafan :
I'm still wondering why you're selling an almost-new ND for a car without a drop top and ten more years on it? I'd keep the ND....
In reply to Dave M :
4 years old, with 50k miles and I have always wanted a Porsche.
AAZCD said:2009 is the first year that the IMS was not an issue. One of my cars came with a hardtop and had evidently had it installed most of the time; The soft top was like new on a 16 year old car. Like Hasbro said, try them both and you will know. It may not even be the difference in model, but the options and feel of the particular car.
Yes this is the word on the forums and on the internet. But how many of the big IMS bearings from 06-08 have you seen a documented failure?
Honestly, the best car of the bunch and best value right now is an 06-08 Cayman S. If my driveway did not have 4 cars in it currently, I'd be buying one this winter. I may get my 94 Miata sold and buy a Cayman S. It is quite possibly the most brilliant car one can get for 20k right now.
AnthonyGS said:AAZCD said:2009 is the first year that the IMS was not an issue. One of my cars came with a hardtop and had evidently had it installed most of the time; The soft top was like new on a 16 year old car. Like Hasbro said, try them both and you will know. It may not even be the difference in model, but the options and feel of the particular car.
Yes this is the word on the forums and on the internet. But how many of the big IMS bearings from 06-08 have you seen a documented failure?
Honestly, the best car of the bunch and best value right now is an 06-08 Cayman S. If my driveway did not have 4 cars in it currently, I'd be buying one this winter. I may get my 94 Miata sold and buy a Cayman S. It is quite possibly the most brilliant car one can get for 20k right now.
I mean...I guess, if you're purely bargain hunting. But the 987.2 cars are better in a lot of ways that IMO is worth the cost difference especially if you intend to keep it around for a while. The engine is very different and aside from the IMS solution comes with a fairly substantial power and torque bump. The exterior facelift is minor but a definite improvement. The .2 cars got the dynamic headlight option which, if you've never experienced, is an awesome system. The interior (specifically the center console area) of the .2 cars is much better looking and seems to be much more robust against the buttons wearing out and looking like garbage. IMO the only advantage of the .1s is that they're much more readily available and the original buyers were willing to order them in colors other than black, white, or silver. That issue is also how I ended up with a 981, I got tired of looking through cars that were boring colors with nowhere near the options I wanted and ended up stumbling on a 981 with basically exactly the options I wanted in a good color for basically the same price as a nice 987.2.
You can really tell the responses from keyboard rangers who've never owned or driven a Porsche. As long as the IMS bearing has been done, its fine.
964, GT4, Corvairs - Oh my.
AnthonyGS said:AAZCD said:2009 is the first year that the IMS was not an issue. One of my cars came with a hardtop and had evidently had it installed most of the time; The soft top was like new on a 16 year old car. Like Hasbro said, try them both and you will know. It may not even be the difference in model, but the options and feel of the particular car.
Yes this is the word on the forums and on the internet. But how many of the big IMS bearings from 06-08 have you seen a documented failure?
Honestly, the best car of the bunch and best value right now is an 06-08 Cayman S. If my driveway did not have 4 cars in it currently, I'd be buying one this winter. I may get my 94 Miata sold and buy a Cayman S. It is quite possibly the most brilliant car one can get for 20k right now.
Personally, I don't fear the IMS. I have pulled apart and seen the innards of two 2001 M96 engines that failed from completely unrelated inadequacies. I know that many of the claims of failed IMS bearings were based on the assumption that any failure, ferrous debris in the oil, or strange noise, is caused by the dreaded IMS bearing. I have read two instances from owners of the large bearings failing, but have no first hand knowledge. The '06-'08s are great cars, the '09s are better.
There are a lot of 987.2 owners that upgraded and wish they had their 987.1s back. It's not all of them but some of them do. Honesty drive both. The 996/986 cars are the lightest and most analog of the bunch with the least amount of electronic wizardry. The 987s have less than the 981s. It's just they way of the world.
And yes genuine Porsche maintenance parts can be pricey. I spent a week taking a class from a group of guys that have rebuilt the most M96, M97 and 9A1 and Mezger engines in this country. None of them is as bulletproof as they are touted and the M96s aren't nearly as bad as they are reported to be if you service the IMS bearing. After everything I've learned and seen from this group of people, I'd say none of them is best. Each is different. If you want the most power, the turbo is a no brainer. If you want the best deal overall, I think the 987.1 cars are there. The 986/996 cars are going to require more initial maintenance and that's just how it is. The direct injection engines have their own issues too.
The real problem is that when something goes wrong the Porsche dealer solution is entire new engine or car. They also make it really hard for aftermarket guys to get any information on the product.
@woody I'm not saying the costs are totally outrageous but even things like oil changes and tires are a good bit more. I can afford it but I'm cheap and truth be told if I were going to spend the difference I'd likely just buy a newer Formula 500 race car. I've got an Italian dirt bike, it requires a bit more than my Japanese bikes did/do but in that case I'm willing to pay extra for what it does.
miatafan said:In reply to Dave M :
4 years old, with 50k miles and I have always wanted a Porsche.
Emotion wins! Enjoy. IMHO if you're not tracking the car, a drop top is the way to go!
AutoXR said:You can really tell the responses from keyboard rangers who've never owned or driven a Porsche.
You could say that about a guy who's never driven a 2002 Camaro Z28 or shot skeet... both of which are a lot cheaper than a Porsche.
What about the early cars and some "bore scoring" issues? Just get a PPI ahead of time? I've seen more than a few 06-08 Caymans S's with sport chrono, PASM, and high miles in the low teens....
I have three friends locally who's cars have had catastrophic engine failure and another one who rebuilt his right before a catastrophic failure. So that's 4 people in my small group here with 996/986 that had serious, expensive issues. All of them had the IMS/RMS/AOS/bigger oil pans, etc, etc, done. Didn't matter.
Overall is it a small percentage of cars? Yeah, I'm sure it is, however my small sample size belies that.
Mezger for me thank you...
Kendall_Jones said:What about the early cars and some "bore scoring" issues? Just get a PPI ahead of time? I've seen more than a few 06-08 Caymans S's with sport chrono, PASM, and high miles in the low teens....
Again do your research there were changes in piston coatings and bore sizes that may be contributing factors to bore scoring. The other contributing factor may be old leaking fuel injectors. The oldest 9x6s have a better coating and smaller bores but the oldest fuel injectors. The 9x6.2s had the revised piston coating and larger bores as well as the 9x7 cars.
If all of this stuff is that scary to you, go C5 Vette but don't get a C6 Z06.
miatafan said:In reply to Dave M :
4 years old, with 50k miles and I have always wanted a Porsche.
There is your answer. Yes, you want one.
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