Do they still make trucks that are trucks?

In reply to Duke :

My first "luxury truck" was a 2001 F-150 King Ranch, so 23 year long "fad" now. Your sense of smell is off

It seems like the people who complain the most about trucks and their efficiency are people who don't drive them. 
 

Im not convinced it's a fad. Seems like a norm to me which has existed for several decades. 
 

Im sure glad I don't have to drive an 80's vintage truck anymore. 

Duke said:

SV reX said:

I get that many of you don't like trucks. The good news is that you don't have to buy one. 

I don't buy trucks, but I don't begrudge anyone who wants to buy a truck.  I fundamentally believe that people have a right to do things I don't or wouldn't do.  But I am very dubious of fads, and this smells like a fad.

I don't - or didn't (well, still don't, really) - understand what's driving the positively massive increase in size and overall bulk.  It seems to me that if the design brief is for a 3/4-ton truck, it should be capable of hauling about 1500 lbs.  It doesn't suddenly need to haul 3000 lbs.  And given the incredible increases in packaging efficiency, why is the front of that newer truck so huge?

The giant increase in height really seems to come at the cost of usability of the bed.  And that's completely ignoring the twi... errr, fine citizens who then see fit to make them even taller.

Have you ever looked under the hood of a 2500/3500 truck? The high hood line isn't just for fun, that space is 100% filled with radiators and coolers. That's how you can do things easily now with a 2500 that you used to literally need a full size truck for.

In reply to dps214 :

This is true.

No excuse for the high bed height, though.  There's a lot of airspace under the bed and they can easily be a foot lower.

rslifkin said:

You can still get a truck with an 8 foot bed.  Usually for a half ton (Tundra, Titan, F-150, Chevy/Dodge 1500) you can get either the big cab or a long bed, but not both.  Usually a long bed is limited either the regular cab or the short extended cab (with tiny back seats).  The full size 4 door crew cab only comes with a shorter bed.  If you want the big cab and the long bed, you have to go up to a 3/4 ton or bigger (F-250 / 2500). 

Whether the difference in bed length matters much depends on what you want to use the truck for.  If you want to put long stuff in the bed or tow a gooseneck / 5th wheel trailer, you want a long bed.  If the bed is just for smaller but heavy or dirty stuff or anything big would be on a trailer anyway (or the truck is just for towing a trailer) then the more comfortable cab is likely to be more useful than a longer bed. 

This was the second post. Everything after that is just arguing. Entertaining, but arguing.

Boost_Crazy said:

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

There are non-fashion reasons to buy trucks that don't involve picking up sheets of drywall at Home Depot, you know. :)

Consider that while the proportion of trucks with smaller beds is much larger than it was in say the mid-80s, the proportion of trucks as a percentage of total vehicles sold is also much larger.  It's possible that the number of long bed pickups sold is actually about the same as it used to be, but you're just losing track of them in the much larger number of small bed pickups.  That's really a new class of vehicle compared to what was available 40 years ago.
 

I think this is a huge part of it. Crew cab trucks have largely replaced full size cars. I will say that in my 20 years of owning a crew cab short bed truck (04' Nissan Titan) the shorter bed size has been made up for many times over by the bigger cab. For me that is much more useful than another 2' of bed. Plus- the tailgate goes down. And it's level with the bed. And it has an extender that adds a couple feet with the gate down, And if that's not long enough, it has all kinds of places to anchor tie downs to. I've hauled some ridiculously oversized items in that truck that would have been oversized for an 8' bed. But I think the winner was when I hauled a 14' diameter trampoline across town. Height was bigger worry than bed length, I had to choose my route carefully. 

Trampoline, you say?

My neighbor had seen us on Facebook before we even turned down our street. 

I get a kick out of these threads, so rather than indulge in perceptions, I went and looked up some dimensions for three trucks....1994 Chev C1500 RCSB, 2024 Chev WT RCSB, and my 2019 Canyon crew cab long box. The Canyon is the narrowest at 74.3, followed by the 94 @77.1 , and the 2024 @81.1 . Those width differences are significant.

As for height, the 94 was the shortest @70.4, then the Canyon @ 70.5 and the Silverado @75.7.......Note that the Canyon is 4wd. Part of the perceived growth in trucks is the fact that modern trucks tend to be built to the 4wd height, even if they are 2wd. Back when I was a lad (in the last century) a 4wd truck was uncommon, and it had a front live axle , which required it to be lifted quite a bit. With IFS that isn't necessary, hence 2wd and 4wd are close in height. What I would be interested to measure would be the cowl height of all three. My perception is cowl heights have gone up more than the overall roof height.

As for the increased mass , my mid-size truck outweighs is full-size ancestor, just like every other car or truck made today. Safety has added weight, as well as all those extra amenities we all love. My grandfather's 1954 International quarter ton (see that) didn't have heated steering wheel , a second row of seats or anything else. (Not sure if it even had a heater)

Personally, I wish trucks were closer to the ground for ease of ingress/egress. I have as much trouble getting in and out of the Canyon (with side steps) as I do with my Miata. Build me short wheel base Canyon with the seat at the same height as my wife's Scion xB. For my needs the truck is comfortable and will tow 7500#, which is why I bought it rather than a full size. The last truck thing I did with it was haul a tree for my neighbour. Each to his own.

I find, for the vast majority of what I've used it for, my 03 f250 7.3 4x4, does everything i need. We recently rented a new Ram 2500 4x4 Cummins. It was worse on fuel, had more traction issues  (probably because of the insane power) and had a harsher ride. Was taller too, so more difficult to get into. On the flip side, better brakes, better handling,  and I'm sure that power can come in handly.  Just not worth the current prices. I've owned smaller trucks, and they just don't do it for me. But I haven't used one as a daily since my XJ Comanche back in the day.

In reply to Docwemple :

Simply because I don't know the answer, wouldn't a Ram 1500 be closer to 03 f250 in footprint?  wonder then if you'd improve both capacity *and*economy. Probably depends on trims. 
 

I know my '23 Tacoma isn't considered a real truck by people who prefer carburetors, but it outperforms my '94 K1500 Blazer in every single way. Better ride, better brakes, better fuel economy (even while pulling an enclosed trailer with a car in it, it matches the unloaded Blazer), better radio, etc. 

Safety.  That's important.  And yes, these massive things they build now are far safer.  Safer for all the occupants inside the truck.  But far unsafer for everyone outside the truck.  Usually there are a lot more folks outside the truck.  Likely this is one of the reasons another poster claimed new trucks "piss him off".  I fully get that.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to dps214 :

This is true.

No excuse for the high bed height, though.  There's a lot of airspace under the bed and they can easily be a foot lower.

Looking at my F150, the lateral bed floor rails bolt directly to the frame. We know from previous discussion how important it is to 'real' truck buyers that sheets of plywood lay flat between the wheel wells, in addition to with the tailgate up, so can't bump the frame up more than another ~1" between those without problematic bed protrusions. There is ~1" that could be taken out of the bump stop cup, and is on 2wd models. I would not consider the ~6" between the bump stop and axle tube as excessive travel that I'd want to lose. After that the rest is determined by the (32") tire diameter needed to not make it not look like a roller skate. 

Seems to me more like the structure limited byproduct of 'real' truck customer driven increases in capabilities than anything else. I'm genuinely curious where specifically you think the rest of the 'excessive' bed height comes from?

I'd love to see a section view of the back of an old and new truck.  I'm sure it's 1" here 2" there and it all adds up.

A truck from the mid 90s had tire 28" tire instead of 32" which makes a big difference too.

That and a 1" taller frame, 2" more compression travel/ride height (because payload), 2" taller bedsides, and a 1" taller structural support box/rib on the bed adds up to 8" taller bedsides real quick.  I'm sure I missed some things.

I too agree that modern beds are too high, but I'm not a truck buyer so 🤷‍♂️.  I like the fact that my transit connect floor height is around knee height.

In reply to cyow5 :

Honestly doubt, unless you spec it just right, that a half ton is going to be able to do what an older 3/4 ton. I know my sister's F150, a 2021, can't. Plus, honestly,  I'd love to see any modern truck for a million miles. There is a 7.3 powerstroke with 1.3 million on the original engine and, unless you're incompetent on maintenance, half a million is easily doable.

Docwemple said:

In reply to cyow5 :

Honestly doubt, unless you spec it just right, that a half ton is going to be able to do what an older 3/4 ton. I know my sister's F150, a 2021, can't. Plus, honestly,  I'd love to see any modern truck for a million miles. There is a 7.3 powerstroke with 1.3 million on the original engine and, unless you're incompetent on maintenance, half a million is easily doable.

But in fairness to the new trucks, outside of a hotshot "team" (you drive while your partner sleeps and vice versa), you won't find a post Covid truck with 1.3 million simply because there hasn't been that much time.  Figure 120k miles per person per year and that's if you're really humping it.  

In reply to Docwemple :

Your sister's truck is speced poorly. My 2012 F150 has a rated towing capacity of 11,400 lbs. My F250 with the 7.3L diesel was only rated for 9000 lbs.

I honestly doubt that any older 3/4 ton truck can come close to being able to do what a modern half ton truck can do. 
 

(I've owned a lot of trucks)

Customers also realized how expensive it is to pay for fuel for a million miles. At 10mpg and $4/gal for diesel, that's nearly half a mil in fuel. To get 12 mpg at $3.50/gal for premium, you are saving enough to buy two brand new trucks, maybe three. 
 

Ran a quick google, and a 2021 F150 can be rated "up to" 1,000lbs less than a 2001 F250. No idea how narrow the spec is, but it does show that, if you were towing "only" 4 tons with an F250, you'd only need to shop for an F150 nowadays. 

In reply to SV reX :

9k? You sure? They're rated foir 14k. Plus diesel engines are the best for towing, not just economy but also longevity. And have you ever used one of the modern aluminum or plastic bed? Theyre a joke. And I've pulled 15k without issue, well, almost (my enclosed 24' is rated for 15k and I came pretty close once). There are hotshots still running 350s and 450s with 7.3s.

In reply to cyow5 :

My f250 gets 15 mag towing. These modern diesels get closer to the 11 to 12 range. Down time and repairs are just as important.  Gas engines require a LOT more maintenance if used for towing. They really aren't designed for HD use. 

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to dps214 :

This is true.

No excuse for the high bed height, though.  There's a lot of airspace under the bed and they can easily be a foot lower.

I helped a friend install a gooseneck hitch on their new silverado 3500 last winter. There's some extra space under there but I wouldn't exactly call it excessive. There certainly isn't a foot of space to be cut out, I'd guess like 4-6" at most. Of course smaller trucks that don't have to have room for a 10k lb rated axle and a diesel-sized exhaust to clear said giant axle have less of an excuse.

In reply to Docwemple :

Yep. I'm sure. 
 

Everyone: go ahead and Google it, like I did. BTW, SVREX, get back to me in 20 years and another 250k miles. Your 7.3 will still be running and worth 30k. Your F150 will be dead and worth 1k. 

To me, a truck is a tool. I've driven them for over 40 years now and they have all been just that. Crappy DDs. If you have to daily, buy whatever, but, then again,  I'm sure you're doing that because it's a working truck. Otherwise, why?

Suggestion: We have permanent sticky threads for "What is a real truck?", "Should anyone buy an EV?", and "I hate new technology" so that we can keep those discussion in those threads. Because we reiterate the same discussions over and over. Honorable mention to "Cars are too heavy these days".

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:

Suggestion: We have permanent sticky threads for "What is a real truck?", "Should anyone buy an EV?", and "I hate new technology" so that we can keep those discussion in those threads. Because we reiterate the same discussions over and over. Honorable mention to "Cars are too heavy these days".

BRB, gonna start a thread asking if  Miatas are still the Answer...

In reply to Docwemple :

I drove my 7.3L to 650,000 miles. 
 

I don't miss it. 
 

At all.