Driving at the $2012 Challenge

I know our gracious hosts provide some top notch autocross drivers for the autocross portion of The Challenge, but this year it looks we will be driving our car ourselves. Well in all honesty we plan to take most of the runs, then hand it to one of the Pros to see what they can do. (Just in case we are not as good as we thought.)

Who else is driving their own creation? Our main reasoning for taking most of the runs is that we will have more seat time than the Pro drivers. We’ll have about six autocrosses under our belts before the big show, so we should know the car pretty well.
In the past it’s been my opinion to always hand it to one of the pros because they don’t have an investment in the car (money, time, emotional, etc.) so that would give them zero stress on their runs. Well zero stress if you ignore not knowing if the brakes will work the first time you need them, or if the boost will hit like a hammer at the worst possible moment. :)

Opine.

2 things about the pros; they've been doing this so long that they're going to be able to pick the best lines through the course immediately, which is a big advantage; also, they'll have been running the course all day long, so they'll really have nailed the perfect line.

That said, it is always a balance between familiarity with the course and familiarity with the car.

Also, there's been some discussion about limiting the number of runs a pro can make for a team. I don't recall there being a final decision on this for 2012.

In reply to spin_out:

6 autocrosses with the car, or 6 autocrosses ever?

I know that the pros probably have a good idea of the proper line going into their 3rd or 4th run out of the hundreds they do that day, but looking at pictures, and seeing videos, that's not the challenge they face- it's the car to car variability, and how odd some of the cars are set up.

If you are very familiar with autocrossing, and are very good in your area, knowing your car the best will help you quite a bit when it comes to the challenge. Especially if they put in the limit as suggested, moreso if the owners are allowed more runs so that the track is more familiar.

Also, if you can hook up with other teams as their driver, the track gets even that much more familiar.

What's kinda sad now, for some reason, I just realized that it's been 10 years for me from my first challenge, and now 8 from my last. I always drove my own car.

As for stress- I would harbor a bet that you have the actual stress backwards- they won't have stress about the track, but I'm quite certain that they will stress a LOT about hurting your car. These guys are pros in more ways than one- and while they will want to give your car the best of the best showing they can, they are human, and will not want to break your car, as well. OTOH, I'm happy with running my car up to 8000rpm, since I'm ok with it grenading while I take the attempt to go the one extra time.

Anyway, if you want to drive it, go for it.

For the last two years I have driven our cars. First was a V8 miata which lacked a functional clutch and the 2nd was our V8 RX-7 lemons car.

Alan wanted to drive the V8 Miata so after our runs he drove it for 4 or 5 runs. He ended up besting our time by 3 tenths of a second on his last run. I am not sure how many we had that year so it may or may not have counted if we used them from the get go.

Last year Scott drove the V8 RX-7 for one run. Its a Lemons/Chumpcar and was admittedly an awful handling pig where the fenders would grab the tires and whip the wheel out of your hand. Our times were several seconds better and still mid pack overall if I remember correctly. Thats on all season 360 TW and stock suspension.

I think familiarity with the car helps to a certain extent. In both our cases it was the first autocross for the car. For the Miata it was the first time we had driven it aside from putting it on the trailer. We are not really concerned with placing and more concerned about having fun. To me driving is the fun part. I am no autocross junky and probably have less run less than 25 events in my life time. The challenge was the only autocross I did last year. In the past we haven't had time to do test days and I'll be damned if we put all this time and effort into a car to let someone else drive it first.

I'll be driving the car myself. I haven't built and daily driven this thing for 3 years in anticipation of the challenge only to make the long drive to Gainesville and let someone else drive.

Plus "boost like a hammer at the wrong moment" accurately describes this thing.

I've always driven my own car. Last year I finished sixth in the autocross in a big clumsy F-Body. I had a few previous events of seat time and was pretty familiar with the car. I'm not sure if a pro driver could've gone faster but if someone's going to run ten tenths and potentially break the car, it's going to be me.

I'll be driving, but also want to see what a pro can do with oddball controls - push button clutch, left side throttle...

Please say the pro driver is the Stig!

No, Per's son doesn't have his license yet.

The only vehicle I could drive competitively at the Challenge is a bicycle, and even them I had a pro ride with me!

Me and Wayne took the first two runs at our first event and were mid-pack. "Pretty good" we thought. Then Alan came in and knocked 2 seconds off of us. Then Mike King had raw FTD +1 cone. We swore we'd never be so foolish as to drive the car ourselves again.

I understand some folks are just there to have fun. If you're there to win, and don't own a bunch of purple jackets, do yourself a favor and let the pros drive. Or bring a buddy who's at least trophied at nats.

my $.02. YMMV.

poopshovel wrote: I understand some folks are just there to have fun. If you're there to win, and don't own a bunch of purple jackets, do yourself a favor and let the pros drive. Or bring a buddy who's at least trophied at nats.

Not needed. BTDT. Have only been to 2 or 3 real SCCA events, so no national exposure what so ever.

Be nice to do a slow conga line drive for all to learn the track instead of a walk, the auto x , not the drag strip. Any word on opening the other track at G ville ?

alfadriver wrote:

poopshovel wrote: I understand some folks are just there to have fun. If you're there to win, and don't own a bunch of purple jackets, do yourself a favor and let the pros drive. Or bring a buddy who's at least trophied at nats.

Not needed. BTDT. Have only been to 2 or 3 real SCCA events, so no national exposure what so ever.

How many years has it been since you've been to the Challenge? You may have had the big autocrossing stick 8 years ago. You'd get your ass handed to you today. And I mean that in the nicest possible way. Look at how the same car we had fastest raw in in '04 did at the last event. Not even top ten in the auto-x, with a pro driver. You are not a better driver than Al McCrispin or Mike King.

Only an observer here, have not been to a challenge, not planning to go, but it seems like a "cop-out" to me to let someone who is not part of the build team drive the car.

In my thinking it goes against the whole "grassroots" concept, bringing in a ringer to drive.

poopshovel wrote:

alfadriver wrote:

poopshovel wrote: I understand some folks are just there to have fun. If you're there to win, and don't own a bunch of purple jackets, do yourself a favor and let the pros drive. Or bring a buddy who's at least trophied at nats.

Not needed. BTDT. Have only been to 2 or 3 real SCCA events, so no national exposure what so ever.

How many years has it been since you've been to the Challenge? You may have had the big autocrossing stick 8 years ago. You'd get your ass handed to you today. And I mean that in the nicest possible way. Look at how the same car we had fastest raw in in '04 did at the last event. Not even top ten in the auto-x, with a pro driver. You are not a better driver than Al McCrispin or Mike King.

At the time, I knew my car wasn't all that fast. The gold car you see to the left is faster than my spider was- so I'm not basing it on my car.

I have no idea where I would be vs. Al or Mike, but the pros that were there in '04 were not chumps, as far as I could tell.

What I am saing is that a competent driver would do quite well, and has done in the past, that's all. Especially since you could make the choice that breaking the car would be ok, whereas the drivers I know would not risk a car that they did not own.

I am driving mine for the first few runs, then I am letting the pros have a shot. I actually talked to Mike King last month and he is going to help me with my cars set up. (He knows a thing or two about autocrossing a civic)

I am by no means a pro but I have been autocrossing for 15 years and do OK locally. I actually beat Mike at the last Autocross by 7 tenth of a second. He was driving an automatic rental focus and I was driving a STU M3 but hey I will take what I can get. That guy is a phenomenal driver...

In reply to mightymike:

I can totally see where you're coming from; however, I think the idea behind the rule is to level the playing field. Otherwise a great driver could show up with a totally crap car and win the challenge, or a team of gearheads could build the world's fastest $2000 car and place dead last because they've never seen a cone course before.

I don't really care either way, personally.

Years ago, Danny Shields showed up at an autocross event I was at, and I asked him to drive my car once in a fun run on Saturday. I had been autocrossing my car pretty regular at that point, and Danny beat my best time by almost a second on a course that was close to a minute and a half in length.

Now, some guys are fast because they've driven the same car forever and know how to drive it fast. Others are fast just because they're fast, no matter what they're in.

Last two posts /thread. GRM could stop supplying ringer drivers, and we could bring a pair of national champion autocrossers from ATL who have legitimately wrenched on the car and have "dirt under their fingernails" as it were. How "fair" would that be?

The Challenge is an event designed to see what you can do with $2k, not who the best driver is. It is what makes the event unique.

Hey if the ringer drivers sponser a keg maybe that would solve all problems?

mightymike wrote: Only an observer here, have not been to a challenge, not planning to go, but it seems like a "cop-out" to me to let someone who is not part of the build team drive the car. In my thinking it goes against the whole "grassroots" concept, bringing in a ringer to drive.

Simply an observer as well--never been to one, although I would like to go.

I disagree--this is not a driving competition, this is a building competition. In the SCCA, most classes are more or less a spec class for one or two cars. All of these cars will be set up more or less the same way. For the most part, the only difference is the drivers.

The challenge, on the other hand, has the opposite thing going on. The only thing that is the same is the course, how do you tell which is the better car? My friend driving an HS Mazda 3 can beat me in a fully prepped STR MX-5 or S2000, but which one is the better autocross car? We know he is the better driver, but having the same driver in the each car probably would have produced drastically different results.

poopshovel wrote: The Challenge is an event designed to see what you can do with $2k, not who the best driver is. It is what makes the event unique.

Which is why I feel they should have a few guys who are good at drag racing since I am terrible at launching. I am very good at inducing axle hop however!

poopshovel wrote: Last two posts /thread. GRM could stop supplying ringer drivers, and we could bring a pair of national champion autocrossers from ATL who have legitimately wrenched on the car and have "dirt under their fingernails" as it were. How "fair" would that be? The Challenge is an event designed to see what you can do with $2k, not who the best driver is. It is what makes the event unique.

So what if a builder thinks they can do a better job? You going to stop them?

I have no problem with having the option of a driver being available, but if I think I have a reasonable shot at FTD, I'll take it. If I reasonably think that I'll drive the car faster than a pro, I will. May sound arrogant, but BTDT. I'll take the chance, thank you very much.

alfadriver wrote:

poopshovel wrote: Last two posts /thread. GRM could stop supplying ringer drivers, and we could bring a pair of national champion autocrossers from ATL who have legitimately wrenched on the car and have "dirt under their fingernails" as it were. How "fair" would that be? The Challenge is an event designed to see what you can do with $2k, not who the best driver is. It is what makes the event unique.

So what if a builder thinks they can do a better job? You going to stop them? I have no problem with having the option of a driver being available, but if I think I have a reasonable shot at FTD, I'll take it. If I reasonably think that I'll drive the car faster than a pro, I will. May sound arrogant, but BTDT. I'll take the chance, thank you very much.

Seriously dude? Of course I'm not trying to "stop" anyone from driving their own car. I WILL try to discourage anyone in their freshman year from blowing all that work to have their buddy who's done 5 autocrosses lose the event for them. Again, when was the last time you came to the Challenge? Please, show up and "take the chance." I've got a hundred bucks on Mike King, Al McCrispin, or either of the Danny's, with them warming the tires for you. You are not a better driver than any of those dudes. If you were, your house would have a trophy room. You're welcome very little.