Excellent. Diesel brothers fined $850K plus $1.2m in fees.

I searched for this but don't see it.

The Drive

Salt Lake Tribune

Synopsis, they are fined $850K for removing emissions devises and selling the vehicles.  Plus they need to pay $1.2m in legal fees.  Best of all they can't dodge it via bankruptcy and are barred from doing it again or can be found in contempt.  Now, I'm sure some will say this is over reach, but the suit was brought by a group of Utah physicians so you can't blame the government.  I for one am delighted.  It's idiots like this and their 'smoke a prius' driver videos that give the aftermarket a bad name.

Chalk this up as one for the good guys.  

In reply to Adrian_Thompson :

Oh thank you sir!!!! This is a win that's been coming for a long time. I HATE diesels. Despise them. Semi trucks, brodozers. The only diesels that seem ok are the little four cylinders in euro cars. And that's because hardly anyone modifies them and intention causes "the Black Death". 
I hope this cracks down everywhere. 

Oh, you'll get your wish. You may not really want it, but you'll get it. And it's not a diesel thing. They're just the ones that are bringing attention (and thus political pressure) to emissions defeat devices. Ever wonder why Flyin' Miata stopped selling the FM II turbo system and went to a bunch of expense to get an EO?

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/discussions-with-carb-and-the-epa-on-the-future-of-performance-parts/160897/page1/

Hell yes.  

"36 times more pollution and 21 times more particulate matter than if it was equipped with proper emissions systems"

Even if you somehow don't think that brodozer culture is dumb, berkeley those guys.

I also want to see them recite a public apology on their YouTube channel as WRITTEN BY THE JUDGE. These people are terrible.
 

as for what Keith said, I've been behind a few stinky gasoline cars. Not nearly as bad. Gas ICE won't be getting a reputation like these diesel idiots get. My area is FILLED with these morons.

Occasionally, one won't stink and I won't have to roll up my window and turn off my only source of incoming air just to breathe. That one occasion happens to be a nice old guy driving his farm truck. A WELL maintained vehicle doesn't have to reek. 

It's not like they couldn't have known it was illegal to remove pollution control devices.

They also did it on television.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Mixed feelings: On one hand, these diesel jackasses are annoying and have been running around thinking they are invincible, and they deserve to get slapped. On the other hand, like Keith said, this doesn't just put eyes on the diesel people, it turns eyes on all car guys.

Shouldn't the network that aired the show have some responsibility?  

In reply to NickD :

I know. I thought the same, the fact is, gasoline cars just don't bellow smog like the diesels do. They also don't stink nearly as much and smell goes away within seconds. Unlike diesel, which lingers like a bad politician. 

NickD said:

Mixed feelings: On one hand, these diesel jackasses are annoying and have been running around thinking they are invincible, and they deserve to get slapped. On the other hand, like Keith said, this doesn't just put eyes on the diesel people, it turns eyes on all car guys.

Realistically, the "eyes" have always been on everyone.  The reality is that there was never enough people out there causing problems that additional "things" had to be implemented.  For instance, the whole definition of a race car, and how it interacts with cars on the street in terms of how it's used.  The big thing here is that you could not really detect who was cheating and who wasn't.  Again, for the most part, it was not a big deal, as the numbers were not high enough to warrant more work.

Then the diesel guys notice the racing and off road exception, and started to modify their vehicles.  Except that far, far fewer diesel trucks are every used purely off road and as racing vehicle, and YOU COULD CLEARLY see they were cheating.  Which leads to the public complaining, which lead to more efforts to restrict the rules.

And we all got caught up in that.

Now what one should notice from Flyin Miata is that they took the path of doing it legally.  And there is a CLEAR path to do that.  Not easy, and not cheap, but the path is there for anyone to wants to make stuff and put it on your car.

_ said:

In reply to NickD :

I know. I thought the same, the fact is, gasoline cars just don't bellow smog like the diesels do. They also don't stink nearly as much and smell goes away within seconds. Unlike diesel, which lingers like a bad politician. 

Your sensory perception alone is probably not a good judge of relative pollution. What about things you can't smell at all like carbon dioxide? Or things that smell awful but aren't really pollution...

Not that I own or defend brodozers, but I also am uncomfortable with the "us vs them" language in this thread.

Nice to see others held to a law we all try to hold ourselves to.

I'm thinking not many bothered to read even the opening post of that thread I linked.

Celebrate that something is being done because it's the big bad brodozers. But be aware that all aftermarket parts are being held to the same standard, and the EPA has specifically said it will be a focus of enforcement over the next three years. So when you discover you can no longer buy a header for your NC or ND Miata that deletes the primary cat and you get all shouty and outraged - you are now with the brodozers.

_ said:

In reply to NickD :

I know. I thought the same, the fact is, gasoline cars just don't bellow smog like the diesels do. They also don't stink nearly as much and smell goes away within seconds. Unlike diesel, which lingers like a bad politician. 

From the product development side though, it will impact all powertrain modifications regardless of fuel type. Nobody is going to risk 6 or 7 figure fines/lawsuits to sell something non-compliant. The fuel type doesn't matter.

If you're a theoretical mid-sized aftermarket company called something like Myan Fleata that has a strong reputation, but is smaller than somebody like Edelbrock, are you going to invest any time, money, and resources into making a product that meets emissions rules? That certification testing is super expensive. And you should've done tons of expensive development work before you get to the certification stage. That takes a lot of time and money that many smaller companies and shops don't have, or have little of. I can see that process taking high-five to low-six figures to see through.

That means fewer products come to market from the small to mid sized companies, and it probably takes more time to get them there. The products that we do get should be better and certainly cleaner, but that leads to a business environment where only a few companies with deep pockets can afford to produce aftermarket parts, and due to the expense of developing those parts, the final price will go up for consumers.

I have no love lost for the coal rollers, and I appreciate clean air and water as much as anybody, but there could be impacts on all car hobbyists if this type of thing continues. That's not me saying that it shouldn't continue, but it's pretty likely going to impact me as a car modder. While my inner car modder isn't thrilled about that, my inner human that likes to breathe clean air is accepting of the trend in increased enforcement.

spitfirebill said:

Shouldn't the network that aired the show have some responsibility?  

This is the same network that shows people supposedly street racing and had a show about people supposedly making and running moonshine. Both illegal. That is, assuming that they aren't staged. (They are. They totally are.)

I don't think it's us vs them.  I think that most, not all but most, people who defeated smog devises on gas powered vehicles believe they were doing it for performance gains.  No matter how much evidence is out there to the contrary people still believe that removing a cat will free up 'free' hp.  The difference with the diesel crowed is they set out to make as much black smoke as possible, not necessarily to increase performance, but in many cases just to make a point and piss off 'sissy Prius drivers'.  Despite their lying and cheating with diesel gate VW/Audi went to great lengths with the diesel race cars to make sure that they never emitted any visible smoke.  Many of these guys set out to just make smoke, just to make a stupid point.  

Regardless of what you think about these guys, I don't understand why "auto enthusiast" are so delighted about this. All this does is bring more undue attention from the federales to the aftermarket that we all love and support and puts other companies under a microscope. 

For people saying "oh it was brought on by Utah physicians, blah blah blah" look at where the fines are going. 10% of that $850k are staying in Utah, the rest back to Washington. 

If you think they are annoying, change the channel, it's as easy as that. 

Keith Tanner said:

I'm thinking not many bothered to read even the opening post of that thread I linked.

Celebrate that something is being done because it's the big bad brodozers. But be aware that all aftermarket parts are being held to the same standard, and the EPA has specifically said it will be a focus of enforcement over the next three years. So when you discover you can no longer buy a header for your NC or ND Miata that deletes the primary cat and you get all shouty and outraged - you are now with the brodozers.

Seems to me that these douchenozzles are the REASON there's all this extra scrutiny. Those of us who play on the edges of legality with regards to emissions probably could have kept doing it for years if these coal-rolling dipE36 M3s hadn't ruined the party for everyone. The extra scrutiny is bad, but the fact that bad guys got punished for being bad guys is good, IMO.

Keith Tanner said:

 you are now with the brodozers.

 

You always were

spitfirebill said:

Shouldn't the network that aired the show have some responsibility?  

That gets into a weird place. I can probably list half a dozen episodes/shows where I've seen something illegal.  A lot of them are educational/documentary style programs.

this comment from the Drive article sums it up

Utah your law is STUPID!!! sorry DB that they are making ya go thru all that lame crap. They all must drive Prius's.

Apparently this commenter does not know about the EPA or a thing called the Clean Air Act or federal laws?  Don't worry he's just mad his 9 year loan didn't go through on his new F350.

I'm not a fan. 
 

Having said that, I am also not a fan of warped and uniformed media reporting that carries a hidden agenda. 

"The plaintiffs purchased a truck..."  Pickup truck?  Tractor trailer?  Trucks fall into many categories, with different requirements

"36 times more pollution and 21 times more particulate matter..."  OK, I'll admit I'm no expert here, and welcome anyone who is.  But since when is there a distinction between "particulate matter" and "pollution"?  Smog IS particulate matter.

And what does 36X more pollution than "with proper emissions systems" mean?Does that mean the output is 36X more than from the factory?  Or 36X more than what could potentially be achieved?  
 

If the truck they bought was a 2019 model year, 36X the OEM output may not be a gigantic actual quantity.  If the truck was a  1990 model, then 36X OEM output could be enormous.

Since they have already separated "pollution" from "particulate matter", I am assuming "pollution" must mean non-particulate matter.  Gaseous?  
 

If diesel emissions outputs are primarily particulate matter, perhaps there is a very minute quantity of gaseous output?  Is 36X significant?

The articles are intentionally manipulated for maximum emotional impact.  That is disturbing.

And yes, as Keith has pointed out, this is NOT about brodozers.  Anyone who has ever modified an emissions system would be guilty.  That could include the vast majority of members of this forum (including me).

STM317 said:

If you're a theoretical mid-sized aftermarket company called something like Myan Fleata that has a strong reputation, but is smaller than somebody like Edelbrock, are you going to invest any time, money, and resources into making a product that meets emissions rules? That certification testing is super expensive. And you should've done tons of expensive development work before you get to the certification stage. That takes a lot of time and money that many smaller companies and shops don't have, or have little of. I can see that process taking high-five to low-six figures to see through.

That means fewer products come to market from the small to mid sized companies, and it probably takes more time to get them there. The products that we do get should be better and certainly cleaner, but that leads to a business environment where only a few companies with deep pockets can afford to produce aftermarket parts, and due to the expense of developing those parts, the final price will go up for consumers.

I happen to know that Myan Fleata is already taking emissions compliance (or the potential of such) into account when developing new products. For example, is it worth selling a new engine swap kit when there's no way it could get an EO? What's the liability there? A header with no cat? Doesn't even get to the point of discussion. This does indeed mean fewer products coming to market, but they're products that are illegal.

You're a little high in the cost for certification - you're looking at it from an OE perspective, wheras a smart aftermarket shop only modifies what they have to modify to reach their goals, and thus the testing is not as intense. No need to prove that the OBD system is still working, you just have to prove that the car is not creating a situation that would trigger a failure. You need to be smart in a different way than you used to be. Turbo systems are going to be in the low five figures, simpler setups less than that.

It's a problem for the theoretical garage builder who comes up with a turbo kit. If you want to sell your product, you need to make an investment in it. And you need to do the work to keep it legal - having to incorporate an EGR fitting in a Miata turbo manifold means you now have three different manifold designs where you previously only had one, and EGR fittings are a pain - but that's just raising the bar on how good you have to be. Hacks will suffer the most.

It's not hard to maintain emissions compliance and still have good performance with modern cars. 

So yeah, Berk those guys.

Tom_Spangler said:

Keith Tanner said:

I'm thinking not many bothered to read even the opening post of that thread I linked.

Celebrate that something is being done because it's the big bad brodozers. But be aware that all aftermarket parts are being held to the same standard, and the EPA has specifically said it will be a focus of enforcement over the next three years. So when you discover you can no longer buy a header for your NC or ND Miata that deletes the primary cat and you get all shouty and outraged - you are now with the brodozers.

Seems to me that these douchenozzles are the REASON there's all this extra scrutiny. Those of us who play on the edges of legality with regards to emissions probably could have kept doing it for years if these coal-rolling dipE36 M3s hadn't ruined the party for everyone. The extra scrutiny is bad, but the fact that bad guys got punished for being bad guys is good, IMO.

Keith and Tom both make excellent points..

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2020/01/14/epa-launches-crackdown-on-emissions-defeat-device-makers/

They told you they were coming.  Big names have been fined already.  Dynomax, flowmaster etc etc...  

SVreX said:

"36 times more pollution and 21 times more particulate matter..."  OK, I'll admit I'm no expert here, and welcome anyone who is.  But since when is there a distinction between "particulate matter" and "pollution"?  Smog IS particulate matter.

And what does 36X more pollution than "with proper emissions systems" mean?Does that mean the output is 36X more than from the factory?  Or 36X more than what could potentially be achieved?  
 

If the truck they bought was a 2019 model year, 36X the OEM output may not be a gigantic actual quantity.  If the truck was a  1990 model, then 36X OEM output could be enormous.

Since they have already separated "pollution" from "particulate matter", I am assuming "pollution" must mean non-particulate matter.  Gaseous?  

Pollutants: NOx, HC, CO.
Particulate: well, it's just referred to a "PM" :)

36x is likely 36 times what the truck was certified to produce when new. There are standardized tests. Take the modified truck and run it through the same test and you get yourself a comparable number. Sure, it's not liable to be a straight scaling factor across all modes of operation - but that's a realistic number on a modern diesel. They really rely on DPF and EGR and cats to run clean.

36x more pollutants isn't a massive amount on one truck, but multiply that by the 13% of diesel trucks that are modified (per the EPA) and then multiply that by the number of diesel trucks sold every year - then it starts to look like real numbers.