F1 2014

alfadriver wrote:

oldsaw wrote: If a leading driver turns into a competitor to prevent a pass, I'm going to call a foul on the leading driver. A leading driver carries some burden (and its' a situational judgement) when yielding and living to carry on with the fight is an alternative to getting taken out. That wasn't the case yesterday but I never suggested it was.

I don't understand your answer to the original question, except that you consider Hamilton at blame... Lewis took the inside line into the first corner, and lead going into the second. At some point the leading driver needs to turn into a corner to make the corner. So if the trailing car can put his wing on the rear of the leading car's tires, then the leading car should give way? that's what you are suggesting. That's all that Nico had in the second part of the corner, since that's where his car hit Hamilton- wing to behind the tire bead. What do others think? 3/4 car, nose even with leading driver, half car, interlocking wheels, 1/4 car, wing even with rear tire, or just enough space to have a puncture? At what point should the leading driver give space? Lots of choices there.

what no one seems to remember is that Rosberg didn't JUST get his wing to Hamilton's rear tire … at turn in Rosberg's front tire was even with Hamilton's "door" … or what would be his door in a tin top

In reply to oldsaw:

So giving Hamilton a hard time is just for fun, then?

In reply to wbjones:

Yet the end result was hitting the tire. Barely. But enough to puncture the tire, whereas other times the same thing results in just the trailing car's wing being damaged when they were farther ahead.

Again, at some point the leading car HAS to turn into the corner. When is that ok and when is it not?

BTW, one can go get the video of the incident on NBC sports. At the end of the straight, when they turn right, Rosberg's wing is even with Hamilton. Just past the apex of the first part, Rosberg has dropped back, and by the time Hamilton turns left for the next corner, Rosberg then hits the tire. This all happens in 2 seconds from turning left to the puncture.

http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.com/2014/08/24/video-rosberg-and-hamilton-collide-on-lap-two-at-spa/

Turn in at second 4, puncture at 6, left turn at 7. if it were tin tops, the current thinking would probably given Rosberg a stop and go for a preventable accident.

alfadriver wrote: if it were tin tops, the current thinking would probably given Rosberg a stop and go for a preventable accident.

I still think this was more deserving of a penalty than Magnussen and Alonso. Even rabid Ferrari fans seem to think that penalty was harsh.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to oldsaw: So giving Hamilton a hard time is just for fun, then?

Not just Hamilton, apparently...

Here's a nice video and graphic analysis of the incident in question. The word "clumsy" is used to describe Rosberg's driving and it applies.

http://vimeo.com/104256018

The narrator also described it as a "racing incident" with no ill-intent on Rosberg's behalf; I agree.

oldsaw wrote: Here's a nice video and graphic analysis of the incident in question. The word "clumsy" is used to describe Rosberg's driving and it applies. http://vimeo.com/104256018 The narrator also described it as a "racing incident" with no ill-intent on Rosberg's behalf; I agree.

Excellent analysis.

oldsaw wrote: Here's a nice video and graphic analysis of the incident in question. The word "clumsy" is used to describe Rosberg's driving and it applies. http://vimeo.com/104256018 The narrator also described it as a "racing incident" with no ill-intent on Rosberg's behalf; I agree.

That was cool. What I hadn't realized until this was that he took two, very distinct bites at turning in, and it was the second when he hit Hamilton's wheel. No escaping the slo-mo

wbjones wrote:

kevlarcorolla wrote: .Lewis shutting down mentally afterwards and asking the team to quit doesn't sit well at all however.

there are reasons for that … the power units HAVE to last … if there was zero chance of his receiving any points (team or personal) then the smart thing to do would be to shut it down and save the wear and tear on the engine

For sure but it was very early in the race and he was faster than everyone except the leader when he started asking about throwing the towel.In a points race that could easily come down to a single point and the fact 600 odd team members worked their asses off to get the car ready I don't think giving up is really an option until all is lost FOR SURE.

He's the guy I cheer for because of his proven tenacity,hopefully that comes back.

kevlarcorolla wrote: For sure but it was very early in the race and he was faster than everyone except the leader when he started asking about throwing the towel.In a points race that could easily come down to a single point and the fact 600 odd team members worked their asses off to get the car ready I don't think giving up is really an option until all is lost FOR SURE.

As you may recall, Hamilton has had a couple of engine failures already this year, and is marginal on finishing the year without a grid penalty for an extra engine. Spa is one of the tracks that places the biggest load on the engine -- doing the rest of the race for (at best) a couple of points but getting a 10 grid spot penalty in Brazil is not a good tradeoff. As it turned out he did 90% of the race distance and got ZERO points, which seems like a significant tactical blunder by the team.

Here's the thing, these guys have worked their entire life to end up in this situation. It's not often that you end up with a car that dominate, and next year's car may be a back marker. They both know it and they both are under immense pressure to deliver. Rosberg in particular knows this may be his only chance at a title, and I think he's probably under the most pressure. He also knows Hamilton is bit faster. Who knows what we would do under the same situation. You can say what you want, but unless you are there, you don't really have a clue.

I think the pressure is starting to show in both of them, and I think Rosberg did deliberately clip his car. It goes back to mind games to get the upper hand. Whether he thought it would take Hamilton out and damage his own car, who knows.

Sure hindsight is 20/20 but regardless of the amount of money spent no team owns a cystal ball.Asking to pull the plug 15 laps in still seems to early regardless of possible engine penalties.

codrus wrote:

kevlarcorolla wrote: For sure but it was very early in the race and he was faster than everyone except the leader when he started asking about throwing the towel.In a points race that could easily come down to a single point and the fact 600 odd team members worked their asses off to get the car ready I don't think giving up is really an option until all is lost FOR SURE.

As you may recall, Hamilton has had a couple of engine failures already this year, and is marginal on finishing the year without a grid penalty for an extra engine. Spa is one of the tracks that places the biggest load on the engine -- doing the rest of the race for (at best) a couple of points but getting a 10 grid spot penalty in Brazil is not a good tradeoff. As it turned out he did 90% of the race distance and got ZERO points, which seems like a significant tactical blunder by the team.

I suspect Hamilton had more info about the state of the car than any of us when he started asking about retirement. He had an interview with the BBC where he discussed it, he could tell it wasn't healthy and that it wouldn't be able to claw back enough time to get to the points.

The team did screw up there. They should have pulled him in immediately. He had the right idea to save the engine. Instead, they did the worst possible thing by leaving him out there for almost the entire race distance and then retiring. Honestly, I'm surprised he didn't just pit on his own accord.

Eddie Jordan chastising the crowd for booing Rosberg was pretty funny.

Hamilton/Rosberg... 80/20 Rosbergs fault, Hamilton takes a small amount of blame for not knowing his rival was there as he, Hamilton headed to the left at Les Combes

Mercedes team turmoil... how far out is Nico? Does Nico need to find a different ride??

alfadriver wrote: In reply to wbjones: Yet the end result was hitting the tire. Barely. But enough to puncture the tire, whereas other times the same thing results in just the trailing car's wing being damaged when they were farther ahead. Again, at some point the leading car HAS to turn into the corner. When is that ok and when is it not? BTW, one can go get the video of the incident on NBC sports. At the end of the straight, when they turn right, Rosberg's wing is even with Hamilton. Just past the apex of the first part, Rosberg has dropped back, and by the time Hamilton turns left for the next corner, Rosberg then hits the tire. This all happens in 2 seconds from turning left to the puncture. http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.com/2014/08/24/video-rosberg-and-hamilton-collide-on-lap-two-at-spa/ Turn in at second 4, puncture at 6, left turn at 7. if it were tin tops, the current thinking would probably given Rosberg a stop and go for a preventable accident.

that's what I was looking at … the right hand turn track out is where Hamilton forces Rosberg off track … or it would have been off track if Rosberg hadn't backed off … I think he just made a mistake as he slid in behind Hamilton … miss-timed the move is what I see

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

alfadriver wrote: if it were tin tops, the current thinking would probably given Rosberg a stop and go for a preventable accident.

I still think this was more deserving of a penalty than Magnussen and Alonso. Even rabid Ferrari fans seem to think that penalty was harsh.

agreed .. I don't think either should have resulted in a penalty … but especially not Magnuseen's … and I AM a Ferrari fan, and am even becoming an Alonso fan

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

oldsaw wrote: Here's a nice video and graphic analysis of the incident in question. The word "clumsy" is used to describe Rosberg's driving and it applies. http://vimeo.com/104256018 The narrator also described it as a "racing incident" with no ill-intent on Rosberg's behalf; I agree.

That was cool. What I hadn't realized until this was that he took two, very distinct bites at turning in, and it was the second when he hit Hamilton's wheel. No escaping the slo-mo

again … goes to my point that I think he just mis-timed his move when he no longer had room to the left of Hamilton's car

racerdave600 wrote: I think the pressure is starting to show in both of them, and I think Rosberg did deliberately clip his car. It goes back to mind games to get the upper hand. Whether he thought it would take Hamilton out and damage his own car, who knows.

to do that he would have to have been willing to knock himself out of the race … he could easily have come out on the worse end of that

wbjones wrote:

racerdave600 wrote: I think the pressure is starting to show in both of them, and I think Rosberg did deliberately clip his car. It goes back to mind games to get the upper hand. Whether he thought it would take Hamilton out and damage his own car, who knows.

to do that he would have to have been willing to knock himself out of the race … he could easily have come out on the worse end of that

Sure, and he's got more points than Hamilton does, so if they both get taken out then he comes out ahead because they both DNF and that's one less race for Hamilton to try to catch up.

except that Ricciardo is coming … one more weekend of zero points and things would get interesting … the manufacturers championship … pretty much sewed up

if he had knocked both out … the points would be

Rosberg … 202

Hamilton…. 191

Ricciardo … 156 … with one more win = 181

so If intentional … for both to be knocked out … then Ricciardo could easily end up within one victory of the points lead … assuming they continue to fight each other

wbjones wrote: except that Ricciardo is coming … one more weekend of zero points and things would get interesting … the manufacturers championship … pretty much sewed up if he had knocked both out … the points would be Rosberg … 202 Hamilton…. 191 Ricciardo … 156 … with one more win = 181 so If intentional … for both to be knocked out … then Ricciardo could easily end up within one victory of the points lead … assuming they continue to fight each other

All the more reason to hate the silly double point season ender. Let's assume that over the next 6 races there is more Prost / Senna, eeerr I mean Hamilton / Rosberg shenanigans, such that Ricciardo can close the gap to the lead of the championship down to 24 points. If they then take each other out, he could mop up in Abu Dhabi. Unlikely, but possible.

Now, I think that Nico will have got such a bollocking from Toto and Niki that he will be extra careful for the next few races. If Hamilton's car can stay together for quali and the race over the next few events then I can see him putting together a string of four race wins like he did in rounds 2-5. Even if they finish 1-2-2 (Lewis, Nico Danny boy) in each event that would put the points going into the last two events:

Nico 292
Lewis 291
Ricciardo 216

That would be an awesome finish to the championship. The only thing I don't want to happen is the winner get the WDC due to double points or there will be an asterisks over his title for the rest of history.

I can forgive Indy car having double points for the 500 mile races as there is the argument that they are longer harder races, and at least in the case of The Indy 500 extra prestige involved as to most people winning 'The Indy' is more important than winning the championship.

If F1 insists on berkeleying with double points then make it for Monaco, Spa, Monza and possibly Silverstone.

Double points is awful......both for F1 and Indycar

Adrian_Thompson wrote: If F1 insists on berkeleying with >edit< points

Hmmmmmm if they can screw with the points system... and royally screw it up... why not a few GRMers take a shot...

My shot...
1) Go back to the old points system 10 for 1st, yada, yada, yada

2) ADD in points for miles completed** - the instant the winner crosses the line all times are fixed and miles calculated.

** - an agreed percentage(I say 2%)... for example Ricciardo drove 191.488 miles @ Spa, everybody else... less. Ricciardo gets and additional 3.82976 points. The mileage divided by 50. ALL Drivers gets these points... based on their mileage @ the instant the winner crosses the line

Tie breaker if needed - fuel used - use less you win

To answer one of the questions to be asked... YES... longer mileage races afford more points.

To answer a 2nd question to be asked... there is no longer a penalty replace an engine or gearbox - example Hamilton running for most of the race, then retiring... no mechanical penalty, AND mileage points gained. No penalty for between race replacement of engine, or gearbox, penalty only for race weekend replacement

To answer 3rd potential question... minimum speed - something agreed on, but my idea is to earn mileage points you must maintain 90% the speed of the slowest (LEGITIMATE)fast lap of qualifying - back marker qualifying speed x 90%

Or just points for the finishing position.

Growing up, the local short tracks always had a few double points nights throughout the race season, just never for the final event. Double points night always brought extra excitement and tension. Emotions ran high, and the driving was taken up a notch. I'm not against double points races, it just shouldn't be the final event of the year. The big races like the Indy 500 or Monaco should be double points. I wish they'd give points to everyone in an F1 race. I will never think it's fair that 20th place gets the same points as 11th.