GM and Toyota

GM sales analyst Mike DiGiovanni wrote: "I don't think being No. 1 in global sales means much at all to the average consumer, What matters most to the consumer is strong brands and strong products."

Yeah, and if you figured that out a decade ago...who knows.

One of the most eye opening interviews I can remember reading was with a Ford executive in the '80's where he continually referred to 'units'. When they quit being cars and start being units, the downhill slide has begun.

You know, all this import vs. American stuff on this board is getting BORING. I don't know the demographics of this board, but I'm pretty sure most of the people around here with such strong opinions on what GM should be building, why Ford is better than Chrysler, Hondas are better than Toyotas, etc. aren't new car buyers. How many times have we heard "if they just built a ______ (fill in the blank) I would buy one" . No you wouldn't. If I had 25 grand to buy a car, I'd buy 3 $5000 cars and have 10 grand for mods. There are very few cars that jump out at me. My grandfather and father worked for GM for a combined 64 years, but I have little brand loyalty towards any of the new GM stuff. Car buyers are a fickle bunch, and marketing is what drives car sales...While I agree, some manufacturers seem to have more "hits" than others, I don't see any large producer hitting a homerun with every new introduction. I also think perception is a big factor. When gas went through the roof (which many have forgotten already) toyotas were percieved to be thrifty on fuel, although my buddies new tundra sucks gas like it was born in Detroit. My girlfriends Hyundai Tuscon struggles to get into the 20's around town. I guess my point is that there are no easy answers..

In reply to gamby:

They'll have great, smaller efficient cars. After all, that is FIAT's gift.

I wonder what the makeup of cars sold overseas is as well? Toyota makes the iGo and the IQ and some truly lilliputian cars that I assume are sold in large numbers compared to Cadillacs and Corvettes. They may have sold more cars, but I wonder what the average price for a car sold was and what was the total sales $$$ and profit $$$.

ignorant wrote:

MadScientistMatt wrote: And let's not forget taking a single platform and making several thinly disguised versions of the same thing, then trying to differentiate them by marketing and brand management, like with the Yarris and its Scion version.

yes it is dodgy.. but arguably more successful than the cimarron. shudder.....

and the cimarron is worse than the yaris/scion twins how? because your beloved toyota should've learned the lesson from the mistake that GM committed twenty-five years ago? i'm struggling to see how your comment accomplishes anything other than bash GM for something that happened when you were still E36 M3ting your pants.

AngryCorvair wrote:

ignorant wrote:

MadScientistMatt wrote: And let's not forget taking a single platform and making several thinly disguised versions of the same thing, then trying to differentiate them by marketing and brand management, like with the Yarris and its Scion version.

yes it is dodgy.. but arguably more successful than the cimarron. shudder.....

and the cimarron is worse than the yaris/scion twins how? because your beloved toyota should've learned the lesson from the mistake that GM committed twenty-five years ago? i'm struggling to see how your comment accomplishes anything other than bash GM for something that happened when you were still E36 M3ting your pants.

cause this.. cimarron sold badly and was a pile.. scion is semi successful..

I owned a cimarron.. It was indestructible.. but... uhh.. a tarted up cavalier. calm down nerd boy.

and in 85-86 when the cimarron was around.. I was like 7... but I pooped my pants till i was 14. so I guess you're right then.

P71 wrote: Found the article on it, it was 2006 and they got $14 billion for 51% of it and it was indeed to Cerebus. http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/03/news/companies/gm_gmac/index.htm

Thanks for the heads up! I honestly did not know that, but I don't spend a lot of time with the financial types...

P71 wrote: GM sold GMAC in it's entirety 2 or 3 years ago. That's why GMAC does all that weird stuff now. Actually, IIRC, Cerebus were the ones that bought it.

GM only sold 51% of GMAC a few years ago. GMAC was thought to be a better bet than Ford Motor Credit because of the diversity of its business. Ironically, it was its diversification into mortgages which hastened its undoing. GMAC has this unit called Ditech. Remember Ditech? Ditech boasted about how it could get one a mortgage without all that nasty paperwork the bank made you complete.

FYI: The main reason Ford is in better shape is that new CEO Alan Mulally morgaged facilities to raise enough capital to try and weather the storm.

Here is the truth for the U.S. auto market going forward. The days of easy financing are gone for a very long time. Leasing will also be scaled way down. New SUVs will now be out of the reach of most Americans. Cars priced in the low to mid $20,000s will be what sells.

This is big trouble for the Detroit Three. Why? Because their cost structures (labor included) is based upon the ability to sell Tahoes and not Malibus in large numbers. Vehicle prices, as with home prices, have increased more than consumer income (unless you work for the UAW who only recently had to make concessions and enjoyed some of the best wage increases for the past 15 years). Now people will buy used or by more affordable cars. Here is the deal, Detroit costs will have to fall if the domestic automakers are to survive. Like it or not, this HAS to happen.

Jerry From LA wrote:

P71 wrote: ...Toyota outsold GM outside of the US by ~1.4 million. That's a pretty big number! I wonder what the main non-US markets are. Japan? China? Russia? Europe and the UK?

The difference is Toyota's penetration into the Third World. You don't see a lot of Chevys in Africa.

You do see a lot of GM in China. GM is the most successful foreign automaker in China (especially the Buick nameplate). This is all the more disturbing for GM.

Moparman wrote: Here is the truth for the U.S. auto market going forward. The days of easy financing are gone for a very long time. Leasing will also be scaled way down. New SUVs will now be out of the reach of most Americans. Cars priced in the low to mid $20,000s will be what sells. This is big trouble for the Detroit Three. Why? Because their cost structures (labor included) is based upon the ability to sell Tahoes and not Malibus in large numbers. Vehicle prices, as with home prices, have increased more than consumer income (unless you work for the UAW who only recently had to make concessions and enjoyed some of the best wage increases for the past 15 years). Now people will buy used or by more affordable cars. Here is the deal, Detroit costs will have to fall if the domestic automakers are to survive. Like it or not, this HAS to happen.

The President of GM was talking about imposing a gas tax to force consumers to buy the hybrid vehicles they were investing a lot of money in. Are these selling in the low to mid 20s? You can get a Yaris and several Korean models for around12K and the new Chinese cars coming in will be cheap too. If Detroit thinks the average guy who just got laid off while the value of his house and 401K got cut in half will spring for a $25,000 hybrid Malibu when he can get a $12,000 Kia, they are still missing the mark.

The average family (I should have specified) will spend over $20,000 to transport the kiddies. Not going to happen with a small car. I hope we see the secodn rise of the minivan. They are infinitely more practical than SUVs and, in my opinion, no more dorky. Turbo Caravan anyone?

Hybrids may gain renewed following when gasoline prices top $3.00 (or more) in a few years once the dollar-weakening / inflation-breeding effects of printing money and issuing debt filter through the economy. But with credit standards being rolled back 25+ years, only a small percentage of Americans will find a $30,000 hybrid more attractive than a $14,000 Kia.

A gas tax may not help GM sell hybrids. It may force consuemrs to buy eben cheaper cars and drive less. Even worse, since the demand curve for food and fuel is less elastic than for discretionary items, a fuel tax would siphon spending from other areas of the economy.

Moparman wrote: The average family (I should have specified) will spend over $20,000 to transport the kiddies. Not going to happen with a small car. I hope we see the secodn rise of the minivan. They are infinitely more practical than SUVs and, in my opinion, no more dorky. Turbo Caravan anyone? Hybrids may gain renewed following when gasoline prices top $3.00 (or more) in a few years once the dollar-weakening / inflation-breeding effects of printing money and issuing debt filter through the economy. But with credit standards being rolled back 25+ years, only a small percentage of Americans will find a $30,000 hybrid more attractive than a $14,000 Kia. A gas tax mau not help GM sell hybrids. It may force consuemrs to buy eben cheaper cars and drive less. Even worse, since the demand curve for food and fuel is less elastic than for discretionary items, a fuel tax would siphon spending from other areas of the economy.

South Korean and Chinese manufacturers will underprice Detroit on minivans. Unless the average family is more patriotic than broke, that is still not good news for Detroit.

That is a good point. Once foreign competition jumps on the bandwagon, Detroit is in trouble again. Look for more foreign manufacturers to open factories in the American South. In many cases, it is cheaper than shipping the cars over.

Moparman wrote: The average family (I should have specified) will spend over $20,000 to transport the kiddies. Not going to happen with a small car. I hope we see the secodn rise of the minivan. They are infinitely more practical than SUVs and, in my opinion, no more dorky. Turbo Caravan anyone? Hybrids may gain renewed following when gasoline prices top $3.00 (or more) in a few years once the dollar-weakening / inflation-breeding effects of printing money and issuing debt filter through the economy. But with credit standards being rolled back 25+ years, only a small percentage of Americans will find a $30,000 hybrid more attractive than a $14,000 Kia. A gas tax may not help GM sell hybrids. It may force consuemrs to buy eben cheaper cars and drive less. Even worse, since the demand curve for food and fuel is less elastic than for discretionary items, a fuel tax would siphon spending from other areas of the economy.

I dont believe the average family is buying any new cars/trucks/minivans, and in response to you last post, do you really think anyone is planning on building a factory? To build what? To sell to who?

VW is building one in the U.S. I am not just talking about now, I mean down the road. My point is that the Detroit three are screwed. They barely scraped by when the economy was booming and credit flowed like water. Even when the economy does eventually turn around (2010 at the very earliest), credit standards mean that most Americans will not be able to afford an SUV. That is death for Detroit, even if it TARPed through this deep recession.

The problem is that you are rederring to now. I am referring to even potentially better days down the road. Detroit is still screwed.

ManofFewWords wrote: You know, all this import vs. American stuff on this board is getting BORING. I don't know the demographics of this board, but I'm pretty sure most of the people around here with such strong opinions on what GM should be building, why Ford is better than Chrysler, Hondas are better than Toyotas, etc. aren't new car buyers. How many times have we heard "if they just built a ____________ (fill in the blank) I would buy one" . No you wouldn't. If I had 25 grand to buy a car, I'd buy 3 $5000 cars and have 10 grand for mods. There are very few cars that jump out at me. My grandfather and father worked for GM for a combined 64 years, but I have little brand loyalty towards any of the new GM stuff. Car buyers are a fickle bunch, and marketing is what drives car sales...While I agree, some manufacturers seem to have more "hits" than others, I don't see any large producer hitting a homerun with every new introduction. I also think perception is a big factor. When gas went through the roof (which many have forgotten already) toyotas were percieved to be thrifty on fuel, although my buddies new tundra sucks gas like it was born in Detroit. My girlfriends Hyundai Tuscon struggles to get into the 20's around town. I guess my point is that there are no easy answers..

Agreed, the bickering is getting very old. Plus there are at least two dozen threads on it, so why keep posting the same E36 M3? I'm probably one of the few on the board that's purchased a new car in the past few years. We bought a Solstice GXP. Believe me I have plenty of cheap project cars, parts cars, and other nice older cars, but we wanted a new car with a warranty for the wife.

Cotton wrote:

ManofFewWords wrote: You know, all this import vs. American stuff on this board is getting BORING. I don't know the demographics of this board, but I'm pretty sure most of the people around here with such strong opinions on what GM should be building, why Ford is better than Chrysler, Hondas are better than Toyotas, etc. aren't new car buyers. How many times have we heard "if they just built a ____________ (fill in the blank) I would buy one" . No you wouldn't. If I had 25 grand to buy a car, I'd buy 3 $5000 cars and have 10 grand for mods. There are very few cars that jump out at me. My grandfather and father worked for GM for a combined 64 years, but I have little brand loyalty towards any of the new GM stuff. Car buyers are a fickle bunch, and marketing is what drives car sales...While I agree, some manufacturers seem to have more "hits" than others, I don't see any large producer hitting a homerun with every new introduction. I also think perception is a big factor. When gas went through the roof (which many have forgotten already) toyotas were percieved to be thrifty on fuel, although my buddies new tundra sucks gas like it was born in Detroit. My girlfriends Hyundai Tuscon struggles to get into the 20's around town. I guess my point is that there are no easy answers..

Agreed, the bickering is getting very old. Plus there are at least two dozen threads on it, so why keep posting the same E36 M3? I'm probably one of the few on the board that's purchased a new car in the past few years. We bought a Solstice GXP. Believe me I have plenty of cheap project cars, parts cars, and other nice older cars, but we wanted a new car with a warranty for the wife.

Are they really going to stop making the Solstice and the Sky? That is one car they would have no trouble selling if gas prices go up again. I have always liked them.

Honda is going to stop making the S2000 and Toyota and Nissan are out of the small sports car business. Their only competition is the Miata and BMW.

Even before the gas crisis, imports were cutting into SUV sales in large numbers, and causing money shortages within the domestics. It seems at least GM was trying to branch out, but it is difficult when you start in a hole to begin with compared to your competition. But you also saw negotiations with the UAW to help correct some of this. I think it was too little too late, but I do believe that if they survive, they will be much better for it.

The last car I bought that was US made was the '97 Grand Cherokee, and it was pretty decent up until the warranty expired, then it proceeded to expire itself at an alarming rate. I think Colin Chapman must have designed it!

Anyway, the point is, they have to put memories like this out of the consumer's mind, and I think one way to do is that they have to go through a complete restructuring, and then actually build good cars that people WANT to buy.

Again, I think GM was on the right track, and maybe Ford as well. MB killed off Chrysler I think in the long run, it's going to take a miracle for them to survive in tack I believe.

As for Toyota, I think they still build good cars, but most are just boring, and the quality is slipping too. My wife's Camry is an appliance to the end, but the materials are light years better than most other cars in the same price range, especially compared to US cars. Many don't take into account how long the interiors of some cars will last compared to others, and US cars always try to cut corners here.

Moparman wrote:

Jerry From LA wrote:

P71 wrote: ...Toyota outsold GM outside of the US by ~1.4 million. That's a pretty big number! I wonder what the main non-US markets are. Japan? China? Russia? Europe and the UK?

The difference is Toyota's penetration into the Third World. You don't see a lot of Chevys in Africa.

You do see a lot of GM in China. GM is the most successful foreign automaker in China (especially the Buick nameplate). This is all the more disturbing for GM.

I have been told of Buick's sucsess in China. But it hurts the brain to really think about it

Different strokes for different folks. Hey, the French think Jerry Lewis is a comedic genius

Moparman wrote: Different strokes for different folks. Hey, the French think Jerry Lewis is a comedic genius

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