Proposed Grassroots Motorsports $2014 Challenge Rules

93EXCivic wrote: In reply to Swank Force One: Why would A6s be the answer? I will probably run full slicks on the Yugo. 13" size like what is used in FSAE.

Yep, opening up the tires gives me way more opportunities to be cheap.

MrJoshua wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: In reply to Swank Force One: Why would A6s be the answer? I will probably run full slicks on the Yugo. 13" size like what is used in FSAE.

Yep, opening up the tires gives me way more opportunities to be cheap.

Exactly. Full slicks seem to be easier to find used then R-comps.

In reply to HappyAndy:

I was also under the impression that we could replace OE brake stuff with new parts as a safety consideration..... much better than trying to skimp on something this important. Was this a previous rule that has now changed?

nocones wrote: I agree with MrJoshua. I somewhat doubt that a tube frame car would change the world at the challenge. It's going to eat up budget building a chassis and it's doesn't inherently allow something that isn't doable with a production chassis.

But its totally conceivable that a potent tube frame roller could be purchased with room in the budget to make it a complete car. Wasn't there recently just such a thing in the $2013 classifieds? A NASCAR truck IIRC?

Swank Force One wrote: Could i respectfully suggest that maybe the "street tire" idea that was thrown around last year might have been a better compromise? Something like... "A set of four 180tw or higher street tires are exempt from budget. If you choose to run drag radials in the quarter mile portion of competition, both the tires AND wheels will be included in budget with proper documentation." Opening tires up but restricting to street tires would seem to make more sense from a "Budget Competition" perspective, since there isn't a gigantic speed difference between different street tires, but there IS if you open it up to R Comp autocross tires. Those that wish to win with their wallet will buy Hoosier A6s, the end. Dunno. Honestly, the tire thing is a bit less vexing to me and i'm sure it's not like the entire field of 40 entrants are going to go out and blow a grand or more on Ho Hos.

^ This. I have been struggling with a way to express my tire concerns. This seems to sum it up nicely.

In reply to HappyAndy:

Yes there was a roundy round truck but it turned up at the challenge this year and they said next time it would have to run exhibition class IIRC.

And how did that roundy round chassis do this year?

dherr wrote: In reply to HappyAndy: I was also under the impression that we could replace OE brake stuff with new parts as a safety consideration..... much better than trying to skimp on something this important. Was this a previous rule that has now changed?

I think past rules allowed OE brake stuff to be free, and we floated it by the group during the $2013 Challenge town hall meeting. Pretty much everyone at the event said to strike that rule.

Edit: Pretty much everyone except Andrew.

93EXCivic wrote: In reply to HappyAndy: Yes there was a roundy round truck but it turned up at the challenge this year and they said next time it would have to run exhibition class IIRC.

We were just discussing that truck. I'm not the Events Department, but I don't believe anything like that was said.

When I saw the truck, I did ask Stan (the owner) about it. How's that legal? I asked.

Well, he said, it's based on GM "metric" frame rails, suspension and running gear. I don't see how it's any more radical than Andrew's Beetle.

He made a convincing argument.

Again, I'm not the Events Department, but obviously he thought it through and came up with a compelling argument.

I'm surprised no comments on the new Parc Expose. I think it now shows what we're after. Plus it shouldn't take all day.

David S. Wallens wrote: I'm surprised no comments on the new Parc Expose. I think it now shows what we're after. Plus it shouldn't take all day.

I like the Parc Expose idea a lot, actually. I'd like it even more if an official "cruise-in" was integrated somehow.

And even more if there wasn't a scored "show" portion at all.

So is this official? It's not a restrictive set of rules but should I start building by it?

I'm pretty pleased with the new rules. KISS. It was really great having the "town hall" meeting at the Challenge with lots of annual competitors listen to the proposals, having a brief discussion, propose some rules, take a vote to get a rough idea of concensus, and move on. It sure felt like this set of rules was the best way to keep the original intent of the event.

My only (very minor) suggestion: Instead of suggesting build books "should be available" during the parc expose, I would change it to "must be present" so as to make it clear that it's a requirement and not a suggestion. In my first build ($2009 hybrid Fiero) I didn't realize what was expected for the documentation side and didn't make it a priority. If it was clear from the start that I would be presenting the data to all in a viewable format, I would have done a better job of it. I REALLY liked Dave's Miata execution this year where he had the budget literally written out on the fender!

Bryce

David S. Wallens wrote: I'm surprised no comments on the new Parc Expose. I think it now shows what we're after. Plus it shouldn't take all day.

I think thats a step in the right direction......I have no issue with replacing OEM brake pads & rotors with OEM ones, SO LONG AS THEY WERE ORIGINAL TO THE CAR.

You upgraded them with either aftermarket or OEM that weren't originally for your car? Oh, they're in the budget.

MrJoshua wrote: So is this official? It's not a restrictive set of rules but should I start building by it?

We'll post the official rules very, very soon.

Nashco wrote: I'm pretty pleased with the new rules. KISS. It was really great having the "town hall" meeting at the Challenge with lots of annual competitors listen to the proposals, having a brief discussion, propose some rules, take a vote to get a rough idea of concensus, and move on. It sure felt like this set of rules was the best way to keep the original intent of the event. Bryce

The town hall was pretty awesome. To be honest, you guys wanted a few things that we didn't think that you wanted. In the end, though, a little communication did wonders.

Thanks again for those who were there. We should hold one every year.

David S. Wallens wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: In reply to HappyAndy: Yes there was a roundy round truck but it turned up at the challenge this year and they said next time it would have to run exhibition class IIRC.

We were just discussing that truck. I'm not the Events Department, but I don't believe anything like that was said. When I saw the truck, I did ask Stan (the owner) about it. How's that legal? I asked. Well, he said, it's based on GM "metric" frame rails, suspension and running gear. I don't see how it's any more radical than Andrew's Beetle. He made a convincing argument. Again, I'm not the Events Department, but obviously he thought it through and came up with a compelling argument.

I must have misheard from some one then. Oops.

David S. Wallens wrote: I'm surprised no comments on the new Parc Expose. I think it now shows what we're after. Plus it shouldn't take all day.

I really liked having things set up like that this year, and the bonus of a fall-back day for the drags was awesome. Nobody likes when the drags are rained out after putting so much time, money, and effort into making the event, so it really made lemonade out of lemons.

I still think that being scored on presentation is a little weird, but obviously you guys want things to present well for the magazine so it makes sense. Just makes for more of a "sales pitch" type parc expose presentation than a hang-out session, IMO.

Bryce

David S. Wallens wrote:

dherr wrote: In reply to HappyAndy: I was also under the impression that we could replace OE brake stuff with new parts as a safety consideration..... much better than trying to skimp on something this important. Was this a previous rule that has now changed?

I think past rules allowed OE brake stuff to be free, and we floated it by the group during the $2013 Challenge town hall meeting. Pretty much everyone at the event said to strike that rule. Edit: Pretty much everyone except Andrew.

Correct.

Cars are traveling at a fast rate towards and/or near the crowd. A 20-50 year old brake line can be replaced without adding performance AND reduce a higher probability risk with major consequence to a significantly lower probability.

wheels777 wrote:

David S. Wallens wrote:

dherr wrote: In reply to HappyAndy: I was also under the impression that we could replace OE brake stuff with new parts as a safety consideration..... much better than trying to skimp on something this important. Was this a previous rule that has now changed?

I think past rules allowed OE brake stuff to be free, and we floated it by the group during the $2013 Challenge town hall meeting. Pretty much everyone at the event said to strike that rule. Edit: Pretty much everyone except Andrew.

Correct. Cars are traveling at a fast rate towards and/or near the crowd. A 20-50 year old brake line can be replaced without adding performance AND reduce a higher probability risk with major consequence to a significantly lower probability.

Yep, couple that with increased speeds when E36 M3 all goes bad due to completely open tire allowances.... No bueno.

Hopefully nobody rolls their car with newfound "free" grip on a budget compromised suspension with no rollover protection, either.... that'd be hell on insurance.

wheels777 wrote:

David S. Wallens wrote:

dherr wrote: In reply to HappyAndy: I was also under the impression that we could replace OE brake stuff with new parts as a safety consideration..... much better than trying to skimp on something this important. Was this a previous rule that has now changed?

I think past rules allowed OE brake stuff to be free, and we floated it by the group during the $2013 Challenge town hall meeting. Pretty much everyone at the event said to strike that rule. Edit: Pretty much everyone except Andrew.

Correct. Cars are traveling at a fast rate towards and/or near the crowd. A 20-50 year old brake line can be replaced without adding performance AND reduce a higher probability risk with major consequence to a significantly lower probability.

Wait. We did? I thought people agreed with Andy that OEM brake parts shouldn't be included in the budget

Swanky, since we're following SCCA/Martin autocross safety regs, open cars running slicks must also run a roll bar. We'll add that to our rules to make it more clear.

Swank Force One wrote:

wheels777 wrote:

David S. Wallens wrote:

dherr wrote: In reply to HappyAndy: I was also under the impression that we could replace OE brake stuff with new parts as a safety consideration..... much better than trying to skimp on something this important. Was this a previous rule that has now changed?

I think past rules allowed OE brake stuff to be free, and we floated it by the group during the $2013 Challenge town hall meeting. Pretty much everyone at the event said to strike that rule. Edit: Pretty much everyone except Andrew.

Correct. Cars are traveling at a fast rate towards and/or near the crowd. A 20-50 year old brake line can be replaced without adding performance AND reduce a higher probability risk with major consequence to a significantly lower probability.

Yep, couple that with increased speeds when E36 M3 all goes bad due to completely open tire allowances.... No bueno. Hopefully nobody rolls their car with newfound "free" grip on a budget compromised suspension with no rollover protection, either.... that'd be hell on insurance.

No roll protection is a choice, as are replacement brake parts. Probability of a roll over...extremely low. Probability of a brake line failure ... very high. At past challenges there have been cars with lines vise gripped off because the system leaked. One team ran with brakes that could stop the car in any sense of a reasonable distance and coasted into the staging area when coming off of a run. Laughed and got back in line. Fortunately they broke down on the next pass.

I think past rules allowed OE brake stuff to be free, and we floated it by the group during the $2013 Challenge town hall meeting. Pretty much everyone at the event said to strike that rule. Edit: Pretty much everyone except Andrew.

Correct. Cars are traveling at a fast rate towards and/or near the crowd. A 20-50 year old brake line can be replaced without adding performance AND reduce a higher probability risk with major consequence to a significantly lower probability.

Wait. We did? I thought people agreed with Andy that OEM brake parts shouldn't be included in the budget

It would be lot safer to be sure in this area as these cars are indeed quite fast. In my case, I will upgrading the front brakes to a larger rotor and 4 piston calipers (common junk yard swap) for triumphs but in the rear (RX7), it would be nice to be able to replace the old rotors and pads/calipers just to be safe. None of this makes the car any faster but definitely makes it safer.....

David S. Wallens wrote: Swanky, since we're following SCCA/Martin autocross safety regs, open cars running slicks must also run a roll bar. We'll add that to our rules to make it more clear.

That makes slightly more sense, then.

I can't say i understand the general idea of allowing cars to go faster for free, therefor inherently decreasing safety of the drivers and the bystanders, but then making "cutbacks" of the exemptions that would help safety at said increased speeds, though.

Or does this mean i can cut the roof off my car and get a free rollbar?