How to determine how much total timing advance.

Specifically a 2.3 ford Lima with the head shaved .055. FI motor, with a Comp 280 Hydraulic flat tappet cam. I don't have the cam card in front of me but it's 280 duration at .050 110 degree lobe separation.

Totally stock computer.

During breakin I set the base timing at 12 degrees with the spout connector removed. At 3000 RPM it was at 28 degreees advanced cold and moved to 24 once warmed up.

Should it be all in by 3000 or do I need to check it at 4-4500 rpm? Is 28-32 more what I'm looking for?

This is on my Lemons race car.

A comp 280 hydraulic cam for the 2.3 is 236 at .050"

Not many hyd. cams with 280 duration at .050"

32 degrees doesn't sound like it's enough to me, but I have never worked on a 2.3. See what the circle track guys are doing.

All In At 3 grand to 3200, 36 degrees though. What kind of Ign. do yose use, Plug it all back in and check again you may need a dist. kit to get that much or a computer reflash, but I am Not Fimilar with that, But the Specs I am

The ignition is all stock with the exception of a MSD street fire coil. I didn't have a lot of luck finding a chip for the 2.3, for the 5.0 they are $100 all day.

I'll crank up the base a bit more and see what happens.

Will the FI play nice if I drop in an old school dizzy?

As mentioned do some research using "mini stock engine" or some part of that with "Ford 2.3L". When I played with them for a Lemons race car we ditched the FI and went a carb with a Duraspark ign.system at the beginning. Later when funds became available a MSD dist. You want at least 32 deg. total but shouldn't need more then 36.

Advance it 'til you knock the ring lands off, then back it down three degrees for the next motor.

Actually, with that combo, I'd bet you can dial it in using 0-60 times. Advance it 'til the time stabilises. Engine dyno would be better, but that's probably not so very easy.

And, is it new enough to use knock sensors? Ford didn't use them as early as every other manufacturer on the planet, but if you have them, it should save its life if you get it wrong.

I'm not sure if it has a knock sensor, I'll look into that. I don't think it has one, I hooked up all of the wires. It's ok I don't think we have enough compression to knock.

Streetwiseguy wrote: And, is it new enough to use knock sensors? Ford didn't use them as early as every other manufacturer on the planet, but if you have them, it should save its life if you get it wrong.

FWIW, to do that, the sensors need to know what knock sounds like, and when it should be making that sound. So that you can distinguish it from every other noise the sensor will pick up.

BTW, one should advance until it knocks or you stop making more power, or if you can do the calculation- torque at an engine speed. That's how we do it- MBT spark or knock limit, which ever is less.

Ok, I'll advance until I hear a knock under load, and use the but dyno. It looks like the computer adds 18-20 to the base timing so I need to get my base up to the 14-16 range. We'll start there and see what happens.

In reply to akylekoz:

Technically, it's not really base timing like it was before with mechanical advance. It's just a number that you work with.

And for EDIS systems, 10deg is "base" because that's the raw default with no signal. Spark is relative to TDC, not that.

So by adjusting the timing with the spout connector unplugged am I just giving the ECM a false sense of TDC? The distributor is the only link to the ECM, there are no cam or crank triggers.

I really wish that I could find an SCT chip for the 2.3, I have one in my 5.0 that made a world of difference with boltons.

In reply to akylekoz:

Yes. For your engine, it's not a big deal at all. So it's more a technicality than something that really matters.

I'm a nerd, forgive me.

Thanks for all the help. As long as the stock 15 lb injectors can keep up we should be golden.

And, is it new enough to use knock sensors? Ford didn't use them as early as every other manufacturer on the planet, but if you have them, it should save its life if you get it wrong.

I installed a GM knock sensor in my 1958 MG race car, feeding the info to an MSD read out, and controlling advance from the cockpit with an MSD timing control. Run it up until you see the ping start and back it off until it stops. And that point will be different depending on octane, weather etc.

Zombie thread update.  For um, reasons this combo failed on us twice and killed our 2018 season.  

Good news, we learned a lot.

After a successful 10 hours of racing at our last Lemons race we decided to swap heads to the one with a performance cam and some porting.   Awesome, done in two hours flat from off the track to running.  

Sunday, it runs but real slow.  The show must go on so we nurse it for a few hours, then decide that we have an excellent opportunity to test an tune.   So for the next two hours we fiddle with cam and ignition timing, nothing seemed to help.   

Once home we found this thread and figured out that the cam was not ground in relation to the key.   I degreed the cam to zero, adjusted the timing with a vacuum and ear gauge and it sounded better.   Then hooked up the timing light to verify and found it at about 34 degrees advanced.   Guess what, it stopped farting out the exhaust and ran great.  So an extra 20 degrees of advance from a truck cam to what we have now appears to have done the trick.

Generally 'bigger' cams reduce your VE at low rpm which means you can run more timing down low. Total timing is not as affected as 'base' by the cam, but in general anything you do that actually improves combustion quality means less ignition advance. 2.3 cylinder heads (chamber design) are a very old design so you would probably still be in the 30s total as long as it's naturally aspirated. If you can find an accelerometer app from your phone you can probably find your best timing at a given rpm by recording peak G on same road, same rpm, same everything else to the extent possible.