How would you guys handle this?

I purchased a long nose crank 1.6 to replace the my bad short nose crank engine.

I purchased it from an individual, as-is, but presented as in good running condition when pulled. We got it installed and started and it had a worse "Death wobble" to the pulley than the engine we pulled.

We pulled off the crank pulley to see the keyway murdered and the key itself quite deformed. The pulley had been wobbling so much it had worn holes in the timing belt cover and worn the paint off the back of the pulley.

Obviously, I would have never purchased an engine that had this problem.........but it was also a relatively good deal $$$ money wise.....but I'm still not happy in the slightest.

When I mentioned to him the pulley was wobbling (before teardown) he claimed he never noticed and the engine had worked well for him. I now have a very hard time believing this.

How would you approach him?

In the used parts world, we all lose sometimes. I have lost a lot.

I try to look things over as best I can when buying something. If I overlook a problem during my inspection, I consider it my problem.

This of course is said for an as is/no warranty deal.

Is he local?

Obviously forget about getting any money for all the work installing/removing, but I would go back to his place drop the motor off and expect a refund. Of course this never happens.

I bought an S2000 differential that was in "perfect" condition only to find huge chunks of metal coming from the drain bolt once I got home. I am still waiting for my money on that one.

You'll need a trebuchet, some beer, an accomplice, ski masks, duct tape and an alibi.

I'd be mad, but i'd also let it go, i've found life has a way of taking care of people like this on its own, and it could be that he had no issue nor knew of the issue, its part of the gamble in the as-is world

There's clear evidence that the engine was bad when sold. "I didn't notice" is a pretty lame cop-out. Why was it pulled?

I'd try to get a full refund from him and settle for 50%.

So, um, what's the duct tape for, mndsm?

In reply to Keith Tanner: It's the glue that holds the plan together

I'll try respond to everyone in this post:

gofast, agreed. Just don't expect to get that treatment from someone in your local track group.

Slippery, yes. I posted on our local Hallett FaceBook post asking if anyone had a good 1.6 since mine was toast. We did a half-assed keyway "fix" that we are going to try to run this weekend.......we will see how it works out.

mndsm, we would be friend IRL if you were closer.

Raze, that's the approach I'm trying to take since it was only a few hundred bucks. But I still feel like he had to have known.

Keith, I agree completely. For it to be so wobbly it wore holes in the timing cover.....and that wasn't noticed? I've a VERY hard time buying it.

He says it was pulled to put a 1.8 in because he was changing the class he was racing in.

I'm just not sure of the best to approach him without coming off as a d!ck.

He ripped you off. Why are you worried about how you come off to him? But that's why I suggested offering to split it - the engine was bad. There's proof. Maybe he knew, maybe he didn't. So offer to take equal responsibility, and you look like the bigger man.

Then grab the welder and see if you can fix it :) It's been done.

aussiesmg wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: It's the glue that holds the plan together

This.

First I would go and talk to him in person (nice like) and try to get my money back.

Second (if nice is not working) get E36 M3ty with the guy, start poking around his place by looking around buildings and under tarps (with him looking). This will put most people on edge and money has been known to fall out of the sky

Third way is to take the guy to court or drop the engine on the front door of his house (made me feel better)

Good luck Paul

I would sulk and keep the engine on a stand waiting around for the project to get to the point where I have to recognize the fact that it's a pile and I need to get a different engine to start with.

Not applicable to your situation, just the real-world and unflattering facts of how I apparently handle buying an engine which bilges water out the spark plug holes when I get around to turning it over.

I've seen enough junk that looked nightmarish on disassembly but ran just fine to be able to believe that he didn't think anything was wrong.

It's used parts, sometimes you get garbage, sometimes you get cream puff stuff. Can't come out ahead 100% of the time.

From a legal standpoint, its buyer beware. You did not perform due diligence so it's on you. If you did not do so because you did not know to do so or how to do so, I bet you do for next time. Callled education and it always seems to cost something to get.

The rest depends on the person, if he refuses to make an adustment or return, then you can be asured that he ripped you off on purpose. Once again you have learned something and paid for it; this guy is dishonest and a liea. Sorry you had to pay for that also, but at this point you are then free to share the information with others.

If you had bought it from me, and I had sold it thinking it was good, I would be sad, but willing to refund, an offer to split would make me happy and we would both walk away winners. At this point,, with the engine back in my hands I could sell parts and maybe come out okay, or if the deal is you keep engine, same deal applies.

And yeah, if the guy is a jerk, quick reverse up his driveay with the tailgate open and a brake stomp will lessen the load.

Keith Tanner wrote: He ripped you off. Why are you worried about how you come off to him? But that's why I suggested offering to split it - the engine was bad. There's proof. Maybe he knew, maybe he didn't. So offer to take equal responsibility, and you look like the bigger man. Then grab the welder and see if you can fix it :) It's been done.

True.

We pulled the old key out, which was a bit mangled, cleaned it and the keyway out. We then packed the keyway/timing belt sprocket full of Loctite 660, hammered the key back in and put a new pulley on it.

If this doesn't hold I'll just buy a VVT engine over the winter.

NOHOME wrote: The rest depends on the person, if he refuses to make an adustment or return, then you can be asured that he ripped you off on purpose. Once again you have learned something and paid for it; this guy is dishonest and a liea. Sorry you had to pay for that also, but at this point you are then free to share the information with others. If you had bought it from me, and I had sold it thinking it was good, I would be sad, but willing to refund, an offer to split would make me happy and we would both walk away winners. At this point,, with the engine back in my hands I could sell parts and maybe come out okay, or if the deal is you keep engine, same deal applies.

That's pretty much my thought process. Give him a chance to be a stand-up guy. If he's a local racer and part of the local scene, he likely will be. If he's not, make sure people know about it.

NOHOME wrote: an offer to split would make me happy and we would both walk away winners.

How is the guy who's still paid half, but has no parts become a winner?

Splitting it is a last resort. You have to demand all your money back, nicely, then aggressively and only settle for a partial loss if necessary.

Zomby Woof wrote:

NOHOME wrote: an offer to split would make me happy and we would both walk away winners.

How is the guy who's still paid half, but has no parts become a winner?

Because he doesn't lose as much money on a used part he didn't inspect thoroughly enough before purchasing?

z31maniac wrote: mndsm, we would be friend IRL if you were closer.

There's a reason they keep in MN. I shut down 5 months out of the year, because berkeley winter. Easier to keep me out of shenanigans that way.

Zomby Woof wrote:

NOHOME wrote: an offer to split would make me happy and we would both walk away winners.

How is the guy who's still paid half, but has no parts become a winner? Splitting it is a last resort. You have to demand all your money back, nicely, then aggressively and only settle for a partial loss if necessary.

You are correct, it is a last resort. However, I don't entirely hold anyone blameless when they take a sellers word for the condition of the engine. If the seller was dealing in good faith, it is entirely possible that he was as ignorant of the engines shape as the person who wanted to buy it. "As far as I know it is good" is no guarantee that it was.

The buyer goes on to say that damage was visually evident, then he should have seen it before he bought it.

Legally, it is buyer beware because the seller very well could be innocent.

^The only way to see the damage was with the crank pulley removed. The holes in the timing belt cover were BEHIND the pulley.

Perhaps that wasn't clear from my description.

I think you should have inspected the pulley area yourself much closer before you bought it. If it is a known failure area, then just taking the seller's word, which might or might not have been true (to him,) is risky. You got "a good deal" on what turned out to be a bad motor. I think you're just gonna have to take that one and chalk it up to experience.

But then, I'm no esquire. You is, ain't ya, NOHOME? Although I am sure that any and all postings on this or other forums do not constitute a lawyer-client relationship nor imply anything other than random pixels appearing on a LCD screen and people who get legal (or medical) advice from a forum of pseudo-anonymous posters should not expect correct answers, or any answer other than a "dumb look," which is, for the time being, still free.

z31maniac wrote: ^The only way to see the damage was with the crank pulley removed. The holes in the timing belt cover were BEHIND the pulley. Perhaps that wasn't clear from my description.

NEXT TIME: Dial indicator on the pulley, spin the motor over once.

As a seller, I represent all of my products as clearly as I possibly can. Case in point, I sold the front struts out of my ms3 to a friend for a winter setup for CHEAP. He claims they're blown. I don't think they are- but I haven't inspected them recently. They weren't when I yanked them out of the car. I'm going to give them a once over and if A- they're my struts, and B- if they're blown, he'll get his money back. If I represent a product as one thing, and it's another, that's misdirection IMO. Granted it is ALWAYS buyer beware, but that's not how I play.

That being said, if a seller CLEARLY is trying to bilk me (as would appear to be the case here by misrepresenting a product.... I mean WHY did he pull this engine?) I'd go to war. I might not warn the authorities, but I'd make it very uncomfortable to be that person unless I got my cash back.

Dr. Hess wrote:

z31maniac wrote: ^The only way to see the damage was with the crank pulley removed. The holes in the timing belt cover were BEHIND the pulley. Perhaps that wasn't clear from my description.

NEXT TIME: Dial indicator on the pulley, spin the motor over once.

I'm not sure that would work. The pulley has to really have a load on it. You can reach down and manhandle it and it won't move.